How much has RPN/RPL spoiled you?

[AnalogJoe]

I wrote a similar post recently and decided to start a new thread.

A bit of background:

When I was around 16 years old and in high school (im now 30) I asked my mother to buy me one of those "Graphing calculators", I really didnt ask for one in particular, I just wanted a graphing calculator, I didnt know anything about calculator brands or whatever.

My mother went to the store, and not knowing a single thing about calculators, somehow decided to buy me and HP 48G+ from all the available calculators at the time, that decision had a huge impact on me in the years to come. So when she gave me my new calculator, and I started using it, I was a bit disappointed, I mean it looked great, it had a huge screen and sure enough it could graph, but doing something as simple as the sum of two numbers was painful to me, it was until I read the manual that I found out it used RPN and everything was backwards.

I wasnt thrilled that my new calculator was "weird" and unusual, even more when I went to school the other day and I realized that I was one of the only kid's in class with an HP calc, the other kids had a TI and their graphing calc was "normal". I was about to tell my mom that she had made a bad decision, and that she should return the calculator back to the store, but for some reason I didnt and I stick with my HP calc.

I started learning more about the other features in the calculator and I began to get used to RPN, however when I had to take a test I would use my Casio scientific instead because I didnt feel confident using the HP RPN.

Months passed, and I dumped the Casio, now I didnt have to store every value, I could just leave it floating in the stack and use it whenever it was necessary, no more parenthesis! I was thrilled with my HP, then years went by and I truly appreciated the value of using lists in subjects such as statistics, RPL, complex matrices in EE subjects, etc.. and all the other great HP functions.

Now im studying a masters degree and realize that I cant live without RPN or HP for that matter, the only time I dont use RPN is when im using Matlab or a similar program. I will definitely use Matlab for the 'heavier' calculations, but when it comes to crunching numbers, nothing beats the speed of a handheld calculator

If somehow I forget my calculator and have to borrow one, Ill be completely crippled, even common arithmetic operations are a pain to perform, Ill constantly get "syntax error" by subconsciously trying to use a simple Casio in RPN mode. I realized that I depend on HP calculators in order to be efficient, I still can get the job done with a simple Casio but it feels like a real struggle to get it done.

I dont know if this is a good or a bad thing, all im know is that I really need to have my HPs around. I like the recent HP products like the 35s and Prime, and both are still RPN (the Prime is not 100% RPN, but it is RPN where RPN is the most useful, in the crunching numbers aka 'home' window) but the day HP stops making RPN calculators, is the day I will stop buying new HP calculators, no matter how good they are.

Im just too much in to RPN to ever go back to the ALG way.

P.S. Thanks mom!!!!!!!!

I would love to read your thoughts and experiences

[Les Bell]

(05-27-2015 07:10 AM)AnalogJoe Wrote:  I would love to read your thoughts and experiences

You think you've got problems? I've been using RPN since I got my HP-45 in 1974, and the effects of neuroplasticity mean that RPN has worn its way deeply into my brain. I can use a conventional calculator if I absolutely have to, but I don't feel confident and need to double-check everything.

As a result - and, I suspect, like many people here - I've arranged that I will never have to use a conventional calculator. At first, I thought I could get by with just my HP-41CX and my older 41CV, but I began to fret that that might not be enough, and decided to pick up a few spares. Before I knew it, I was a collector, and as I type this, there are 8 HP calculators on my desk - and the only non-RPN one is an HP-71B. In fact, everyone in my family (wife and two kids) has at least one RPN calculator, if only a 12C.

[stands up]
Hi, everybody! My name is Les, and I'm an addict. . .
[sits down again]

[Brian D]

Back when the 15C was the thing, we were about to take an exam and the prof asked if anyone had a spare calculator for someone who had forgotten his own. Apparently the first calculator which was offered wasn't sufficient, as the professor sarcastically told the room "I guess it has to be an HP."

When I was in the same situation once, I simply wrote that I had no calculator that day and worked all the problems to the point where the only thing left to do was punch the keys for the final answer. I got an A.

Having said that, it is kind of scary now that I think back to how I was relying on a single 15C with no backup.

I happened to learn Forth just before I got the 15C. Double RPN re-enforcement.

[Dave Britten]

There are two things I miss most when using a TI/Casio/other algebraic:

1. Being able to quickly copy an intermediate result partway through a problem to come back and try something else with it later, and also spot/correct errors more easily.

2. Writing programs/functions that behave like built-ins, i.e. they accept input parameters, and return outputs, which can then be passed to other functions. The TI-92 family is the only algebraic I can think of that lets you write user-defined functions (or the Psion Organiser II, but it makes a pretty clumsy calculator).

Not to mention I usually stuff up the parentheses when entering anything lengthy on an algebraic machine that evaluates immediately rather than having a full text-based entry line. This includes the HP 20S, nice as it may be for an algebraic.

That said, I do think that the BASIC-like language of the TIs makes it easier to write self-documenting code that doesn't require reverse-engineering what's happening on the stack. RPN and RPL can be, much like Perl and regexes, a write-only language at times. TIs also make it generally easier to write interactive programs, with more straight-forward interactive IO and branching. As much as I agree with structured programming for large projects, at times I feel like the 48's RPL leaned on it a bit too heavily.

Unrelated: I wonder who the youngest members are. I know Tim and I are both around 32. Anybody pre-university here?

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(05-27-2015 11:36 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Unrelated: I wonder who the youngest members are. I know Tim and I are both around 32. Anybody pre-university here?

Sigh... You are both younger than my first HP! :)

[Les Bell]

(05-27-2015 12:44 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Sigh... You are both younger than my first HP!

My daughter's calculator (a 12C) is older than she is. In fact, the 45 I have in my hand is twice as old as she is, although since she studied accounting and finance, the 12C is a better fit for her. Time marches on, doesn't it?

[Dave Britten]

(05-27-2015 12:44 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  

(05-27-2015 11:36 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Unrelated: I wonder who the youngest members are. I know Tim and I are both around 32. Anybody pre-university here?

Sigh... You are both younger than my first HP!

Funny enough, my oldest HP is the 41CV I just got about a week ago. Technically it was released before me in 1980, although the unit I have is stamped with a May 1983 serial number, so I'm slightly older than this particular specimen. Sometimes I feel like I was just born 20 years too late.

[bshoring]

I got my first HP in 1981 and I picked it out based on the features. It was not until I got home that I realized it worked differently. So I read the manual, especially the part about RPN and the stack, and about an hour after I bought it, I was comfortable and never looked back.

Ever since then I have preferred RPN. So I guess I am spoiled with it. However, I did not mind the "Calc Mode" of the HP-71B. Of course I got the FORTH ROM and then the HP-41 Emulator ROM for my 71B. I still use its calc mode occasionally, but for most purposes, I prefer RPN. I guess one would say my 5 calculators are all antiques, as I don't have any models later than the 71B. I also have several RPN emulators on my tablets and smartphone, but even with those, I still prefer the emulators of the early HP's (the first decade).

I used to get a kick out of my boss's reaction. Sometimes he'd come over and ask to borrow my calculator and he'd go crazy. He'd say, 'Damn you, I should have known you'd have one of THOSE."

I'm sold on RPN !

Bob

[AnalogJoe]

Les Bell: Wow, I can understand that you are deeper into the rabbit hole than we are, its been a long time since 74. Ohhh and "Hello Les!, Im also an addict!"

Brian D: I think we've all shared the same story, someone asks if he/she can borrow our calculator, we answer "sure" and hand over the HP calc, deep inside we are just waiting for the moment to come, and sure enough the moment comes when he/she asks "So how do I sum these two numbers?, wheres the equal sign and why does the calculator display an error?", after a brief explanation about how the calculator is a little different than the rest they politely return the calculator and ask someone else for a calculator.

Dave Bitten: I guess some of us 30 year olds still consider RPN as something good but it is not very appealing to the younger generations. I teach a couple of classes and havent seen any youngsters with RPN HP calcs, not even one, 80% own a Casio, and the rest are either TI or Sharp, the very few who do own an HP have one of those new Chineese non RPN HPs, oddly enough I've found that those HP calcs have exactly the same software as the Casios, same menus, even the same text style, which makes me believe they are just rebranded Casios or similar.

To further add to your comparison with TI calcs, some years ago I would still acknowledge some of the benefits of TI calcs when compared to HP calcs, arguably some people could lean towards the TI's or the HP's, but now HP completely blew away the competition with the Prime, Ive seen comparision videos and HP really did it this time, there is absolutely no comparison between the Prime and the rest of the calcs, as of now, the HP Prime is the thinest, most powerful and fastest calculator in the market. The Hp Prime has RPN, Algebraic CAS, and it is the only one with a fully working touchscreen, the plotting speed is orders of magnitude faster than any other calculator, It doesnt get easier than that. Plus its very friendly, so friendly that many TI lovers who used to diss the HPs for being 'difficult to use' calculators are now getting HP Primes, Ti will have to do something fast if they dont want to loose the highschool/college market which is mostly dominated by them. The older HPs are great, I for one love my 48GX the most, but to be honest those HP Primes are truly a work of art, I have one myself and it blows my mind every time I use it.

Regardless of which particular calc im using at a certain momment, im happy as long as it is RPN.....

[ElectroDuende]

(05-27-2015 10:23 PM)bshoring Wrote:  I got my first HP in 1981 and I picked it out based on the features. It was not until I got home that I realized it worked differently. So I read the manual, especially the part about RPN and the stack, and about an hour after I bought it, I was comfortable and never looked back.

I went through this way... twice!

First when I got my HP48G in my fisrt year in the Engineering School, as it was said to be the best (well, GX was even better, but the budget was limited). BEEP! Too few arguments.

When I finished my degree, it went to a drawer (fortunately without batteries) for several years. During this time I used a cheapo-casio, until I needed to do some complex number calculations. I rescued it, re-learnt RPN, then got a 30B for daily use in the office, then get a 17BII (pioneer), then a 32SII... and much more!

[Marcus von Cube]

TI calculators of old (SR-51A, SR-56, TI-59) helped me through school and university, but the very first calculator I ever had access to, even if it was only for a day, was an HP 35:

The calc that always gave PI as the result

[bshoring]

(05-30-2015 06:14 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  The calc that always gave PI as the result

Nice story! I never thought about that but it makes sense.

[d b]

In that old post by Marcus, he said "I must admit that I switched to the (much more affordable) TI line of calculators in my later school and university career, the HPs were simply out of reach."
-It's a good thing for us 34 users that he came back.-

BTW; I never tried to go over to TI but I did try the 71b. HP's survey ROM for the 71 was a big improvement over the one for the 41, and John Rush's Extratra 71 was outstanding, but that = key made it a nightmare for me to use outside the program.

[AnalogJoe]

(05-30-2015 07:35 PM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  In that old post by Marcus, he said "I must admit that I switched to the (much more affordable) TI line of calculators in my later school and university career, the HPs were simply out of reach."
-It's a good thing for us 34 users that he came back.-

BTW; I never tried to go over to TI but I did try the 71b. HP's survey ROM for the 71 was a big improvement over the one for the 41, and John Rush's Extratra 71 was outstanding, but that = key made it a nightmare for me to use outside the program.

Den, I must admit that I never tried to replace my HP with a TI, but I did buy a TI once, back then the TI had a very complete application for both mechanical and electrical engineers, everybody was using it back then (a lot of people still do) so I naturally wanted to own one, however soon after I bought it I realized that I kept reaching for my HP, the app alone wasnt enough motivation to use the TI, after a while I mostly quit using the TI, I still own it, but sadly its just collecting shelf dust.

[Andreas Grund]

My first calculator was a TI SR-10 in the early seventies, little later I got access for one day to a HP-35 at the university, where I studied physical chemistry. I learned RPN on the spot (well, young brain...) and got addicted since then. Meanwhile I keep more than 20 HP calculators in two homes and office, so, a HP is always available. My favorite is for years the 32 SII, simply due to the form factor.

My wife and my daughters don't like RPN calculators, for them I am obsessed. At office, or in a meeting, occasionally somebody takes my HP for a short calculation, well, the result should be known...

[AnalogJoe]

(06-02-2015 01:27 AM)Andreas Grund Wrote:  My wife and my daughters don't like RPN calculators, for them I am obsessed. ...

HAHA, I would love to hear what they say to you, I mean im single so nobody bugs me and I dont care, but I can only wonder what your "iphone generation" daughter thinks about his father with more than 20 weird old calculators.

[TASP]

My first RPN was the HP25. I had an SR10 before, and a Commodore SR1400 (I think I have that right)

The Commodore could handle 2 sets of nested parentheses, and it was always dramatic when you hit the = button, as it could take a few seconds to work out the answer. I had it in high school, so, 1974 and 75 I suppose.

Got the HP25 when they first came out. I REALLY wanted an HP55, but just didn't have the $$$.

Bought an HP41CV when they came out. Probably early 80s. It 'died' some years later, at the time I felt it was static electricity damage, now I look back and think broken screw post and intermittent electrical contact. It's long gone, whatever was wrong.

I can use RPN or algebraic. My cell phone (Droid Razr M) has a craptacular algebraic built in that is adequate. I'm carrying around a 41 these days now, hoping to have it recognized and start a conversation.

(I'm up to 7 HP41s now)

[Les Bell]

(06-02-2015 03:50 AM)TASP Wrote:  I can use RPN or algebraic. My cell phone (Droid Razr M) has a craptacular algebraic built in that is adequate. I'm carrying around a 41 these days now, hoping to have it recognized and start a conversation.

(I'm up to 7 HP41s now)

You need go41cx on your phone.

Someone struck up a conversation with me while I was using my 16C in my university library a few months ago, so it does happen.

[TASP]

The 41CX em app will go on my next phone. I'm eligible for a new phone and am considering an Apple 5s. My Droid has been a big disappointment. It is a very early version, had some disturbing issues with apps the first month I had it, and subsequent software upgrades have further crippled it.

I haven't had a decent cellphone since my Chocolate.

[Hlib]

In my country programmable calculators were made only with RPN logic. We had no choice in those days, so in 1984 I started programming on rather simple calculator "MK-54", made in USSR. I got my first HP-RPN(RPL) only in 2012, it was HP-50G. Nearly two years I spent to master this very difficult device to use it at last in daily tasks. I had a wide experience on other graphic calculators before, so not the existence of RPN, but mathematical opportunities of the calculator is more important for me. Even now I sometimes switch the ALG-RPN modes on the HP-50 depending on specific problems. But I prefer to carry out simple calculations always in RPN.