HP50g forums / community is there such alive?

[Vtile]

Hello is there any defacto forum for 50g around in internet (not the official HP support one, since only way to use it is through Google [site:URL arg1 arg2]).

Just did come to my mind, when I were reading on hpcalc.org program lists of HP49/50g and frankly it seems that the evolution have stopped in HP49? So is there any active community corner for 49/50 around the web?? Plus hpcalc.org link listings etc are mainly for HP48xxx while same family line different functionalities etc.

[Jlouis]

(11-02-2015 12:41 PM)Vtile Wrote:  Hello is there any defacto forum for 50g around in internet (not the official HP support one, since only way to use it is through Google [site:URL arg1 arg2]).

Just did come to my mind, when I were reading on hpcalc.org program lists of HP49/50g and frankly it seems that the evolution have stopped in HP49? So is there any active community corner for 49/50 around the web?? Plus hpcalc.org link listings etc are mainly for HP48xxx while same family line different functionalities etc.

Yes, this very forum.

Ask, comment anything you like concerning 50g and 49g. Fellows here are friendly and with lots of expertise.

Enjoy and learn.

Cheers

JL

[Marcio]

It seems that we "50g people" have become less vocal with the arrival of the HP Prime computer, I mean, calculator. Compare the number of threads that were created since its release in 2013 against those of the this forum which accommodates subjects related to all other HP calculators.

[Vtile]

(11-02-2015 12:51 PM)Jlouis Wrote:  

(11-02-2015 12:41 PM)Vtile Wrote:  Hello is there any defacto forum for 50g around in internet (not the official HP support one, since only way to use it is through Google [site:URL arg1 arg2]).

Just did come to my mind, when I were reading on hpcalc.org program lists of HP49/50g and frankly it seems that the evolution have stopped in HP49? So is there any active community corner for 49/50 around the web?? Plus hpcalc.org link listings etc are mainly for HP48xxx while same family line different functionalities etc.

Yes, this very forum.

Ask, comment anything you like concerning 50g and 49g. Fellows here are friendly and with lots of expertise.

Enjoy and learn.

Cheers

JL

That is what I though.. I definedly will and have been.

Only drawback is that this is "museum" both by name and activity and the registration to forum needs a knowledge of archaic HPs or "google fu" about PRIME, the third option is not valid atleast for 50g (the one with RPN/RPL instruction list, should atleast have note at which device).

I challenge the owners of the 50g to go trough the hpcalc.org HP48II, HP49g, (< out of production who knows how long) HP50g program list and test which one works (atleast which doesn't corrupt the memory at start) in HP50g with latest ROM and generate a list of such programs. As a new user now and especially a year ago, I must say it is a bit of a leap to try out a program that is informed to work in HP48II/HP49/50 (with desciption indicating it actually is written to 48 and listed 10+ years ago) without any knowledge of the internal differences of devices. Good example Excel "compatible" spreadsheet program XCALL.

A recent HP calculators should have some sort of living easy to access community, with integrated program libraries and documentation all in one place, compared to many other "big names". Not a damn dusty Museum of calculators forum and separated "information here, but only the old models page". I blame the older generations. Ie. I find it a bit amusing that most up to date conversation conserning PRIME is under something called museum.org

Xcalc does work, but I downloaded it through educalc (after using a hours of google time *huh*) I think and it is somehow updated version compared to one listed to hpcalc.org?

[Jake Schwartz]

(11-02-2015 01:54 PM)Vtile Wrote:  I challenge the owners of the 50g to go trough the hpcalc.org HP48II, HP49g, HP50g program list and test which one works (at least which doesn't corrupt the memory at start) in HP50g with latest ROM and generate a list of such programs. As a new user now and especially a year ago, I must say it is a bit of a leap to try out a program that is informed to work in HP48II/HP49/50 (with desciption indicating it actually is written to 48 and listed 10+ years ago) without any knowledge of the internal differences of devices.

This is classic....a new user comes along and broadcasts disappointment that things aren't the way he/she expects them to be and then thinks that the community owes it to him/her to change things. <At least that is how I read the words...>

This is a "volunteer-powered" activity. If you think something should be different or improved, then please show us how by volunteering to make it better in your eyes, rather than to protest that it doesn't fit your needs the way it is. I feel that the best way to convince people that your suggestion is an improvement would be to show how it is done.

Thanks,
Jake

[Vtile]

(11-02-2015 02:06 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  

(11-02-2015 01:54 PM)Vtile Wrote:  I challenge the owners of the 50g to go trough the hpcalc.org HP48II, HP49g, HP50g program list and test which one works (at least which doesn't corrupt the memory at start) in HP50g with latest ROM and generate a list of such programs. As a new user now and especially a year ago, I must say it is a bit of a leap to try out a program that is informed to work in HP48II/HP49/50 (with desciption indicating it actually is written to 48 and listed 10+ years ago) without any knowledge of the internal differences of devices.

This is classic....a new user comes along and broadcasts disappointment that things aren't the way he/she expects them to be and then thinks that the community owes it to him/her to change things. <At least that is how I read the words...>

I think your reply is a pretty classic also. The user communities are doing a lot of work (for free) that actually belongs to HP (or other manufacturers in their own circles).
I can shut up.

(11-02-2015 02:06 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  This is a "volunteer-powered" activity. If you think something should be different or improved, then please show us how by volunteering to make it better in your eyes, rather than to protest that it doesn't fit your needs the way it is. I feel that the best way to convince people that your suggestion is an improvement would be to show how it is done.

Thanks,
Jake

I already did something, I lifted the topic to the table.

I actually just noticed that the hpcalc.org is actually a part of some business or other way around.
I also give a tip that EFNet.org have webchat client that doesn't reguire any use of 3rd party IRC client: http://chat.efnet.org/irc.cgi Some younger generations might never heard of IRC btw. <- For Eric.

[Han]

Much of the activity related to the HP50G has come and gone (much of it on comp.sys.hp48) In fact, there was word some while back the that HP50G may be discontinued.

[Jake Schwartz]

(11-02-2015 02:48 PM)Vtile Wrote:  I actually just noticed that the hpcalc.org is actually a part of some business or other way around.

HPcalc.org is not actually part of any business...it is Eric's volunteer activity to aggregate/curate what is sent to him and make it available to the user community all in one place.

[Vtile]

(11-02-2015 03:28 PM)Han Wrote:  Much of the activity related to the HP50G has come and gone (much of it on comp.sys.hp48) In fact, there was word some while back the that HP50G may be discontinued.

Unfortunate, but kind of expected. Haven't never used USENET mailing lists, totally not known part of web for me.

(11-02-2015 03:56 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  

(11-02-2015 02:48 PM)Vtile Wrote:  I actually just noticed that the hpcalc.org is actually a part of some business or other way around.

HPcalc.org is not actually part of any business...it is Eric's volunteer activity to aggregate/curate what is sent to him and make it available to the user community all in one place.

Ah, ok I stand corrected. Great resource it is, but kind of hard to explore inside the "calc families".

A question: Is there somewhere floating around a "Cheat Sheet" of HP50g UserRPL commands and functions, grouped by usage? Ie. String manipulation, Number manipulation, communication, graphics etc.. ? Given that there is something like 700 commands&functions it is not the most forgiving task to try to search them a quick way from AURMv2. Asking this because if not, I think I need to create one while I work through the "learning phase" of the userRPL. The calculator kind of have one build in, but it is only partial.

Another question: Do I have understood correctly that UserRPL doesn't have GOSUB / GOTO & LABEL commands?

[matthiaspaul]

(11-02-2015 09:16 PM)Vtile Wrote:  Given that there is something like 700 commands&functions it is not the most forgiving task to try to search them a quick way from AURMv2. Asking this because if not, I think I need to create one while I work through the "learning phase" of the userRPL. The calculator kind of have one build in, but it is only partial.

Perhaps Andreas Möller's solutions would be useful for your (but it's commercial software):

http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de/index.html

Greetings,

Matthias

[matthiaspaul]

(11-02-2015 09:16 PM)Vtile Wrote:  Given that there is something like 700 commands&functions it is not the most forgiving task to try to search them a quick way from AURMv2. Asking this because if not, I think I need to create one while I work through the "learning phase" of the userRPL. The calculator kind of have one build in, but it is only partial.

Perhaps Andreas Möller's solutions would be useful for you (but it's commercial software):

http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de/index.html

Greetings,

Matthias

[Bill Platt]

(11-02-2015 09:16 PM)Vtile Wrote:  [quote='Han' pid='44939' dateline='1446478097']
Much of the activity related to the HP50G has come and gone (much of it on comp.sys.hp48) In fact, there was word some while back the that HP50G may be discontinued.

Unfortunate, but kind of expected. Haven't never used USENET mailing lists, totally not known part of web for me.

It is never too late to learn how to *actually* use the internet...

The 50G runs the whole 48G with Metakernel on an emulator. The processor was no longer available when the production of the 50G came along (this was also true during the 49G+ period). If you dig into c.s.hp48 you will learn all about it. You can crack into the 50G and write programs in assembly directly on the ARM processor. You can write C++ code on it. You can do all sorts of crazy stuff that is beyond me. But FUNDAMENTALLY, the 50G is a 49G, or a 48G with Metakernel. That means all the commands, the userrpl and sysrpl etc. HOWEVER in trying to build a robust software emulation of the original processor, entry points and clock speed were an issue, I remember certain bugs that got sorted early on.

Everything I just said should be taken with salt in the details. But the overall scope for you:
1. Learn how to use the internet.
2. Get the HP48GX manuals and read them. Start with the thin one and move up from there.
3. You don't ever need SysRPL unless you want to be a rock star or something.
4. RPL is not RPN programming. And 41C programming is not quite classic RPN programming. RPL is closer to a high level language whereas the other two are closer to the machine. So specific commands and ways of doing things on a Spice or a Voyager or a Pioneer will not apply.

[Vtile]

Why is that RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) is not RPN (Reverse Polish Notation = arguments before commands) programming, in sense that arguments are given before commands and there is atleast two accumulators where the "data" is "loaded" before execution.

[Gjermund Skailand]

I suggest you look at

http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/apps/editors/emacs211a.zip

Do a complete install with SDiag and extable on SD-card.
Then run AsnEmacs

Then you get an extended editor with description of USER-rpl (and all others commands as well) on the calculator.
I find it very helpful

Best regards
Gjermund

[Dwight Sturrock]

A useful resource is:

UserRPL stack commands
Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 8 July 2007, 3:51 a.m.

This article is located on this forum.

As with any programming environment, you don't have to know all the features for it to be useful. The unlimited stack with 7 or so levels visible makes it worthwhile learning the basics of this machine.

[peacecalc]

Hello Vtile,

I don't know where your problem exactly is:

Quote:Why is that RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) is not RPN (Reverse Polish Notation = arguments before commands) programming, in sense that arguments are given before commands and there is atleast two accumulators where the "data" is "loaded" before execution.

The question "Why" can only answered by developers of the family 48/49/50. They intended that programming language and found it useful for "future user" (meant in the times of the beginning of the product family).

From LISP comes the abilities for working with lists and from RPN you get the abilities working with a stack. But some structure are not as consequent as expected:

For instance the IF THEN ELSE END construct:

<< 1, IF THEN 2, ELSE 3, END >> will result 2, after evaluation same result when you use << IF 1, THEN 2, ELSE 3, END >>

That is dued to rules for high level languages. The IF works like a function so the boolean (happy birthday 200 years yesterday) evaluation can be done afterwards IF or before (like RPN).

And at last a little tip:

For bigger programming projects avoid using stack-commands, the programs are very hard to understand some times later (or for other persons).

And of course there are actually less questions (and answers) about the hp 50g,
because that machine exist some years. But the people who are new with that machine have to do some hard work nearly 1600 pages of handbooks. And an enormous treasure of knowledge of experienced user. It is a treasure you have to search for some places same as a lot of users and I do: hpmuseum, hpcalc, comp.sys.hp48 and last not least: hp own's site mobiles and handhelds concerning

greetings
peaceglue

[Didier Lachieze]

(11-03-2015 11:10 AM)Vtile Wrote:  Why is that RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) is not RPN (Reverse Polish Notation = arguments before commands) programming, in sense that arguments are given before commands and there is atleast two accumulators where the "data" is "loaded" before execution.

I recommend the reading of:

• "RPL: A Mathematical Control Language", by W. C. Wickes, published in "Programming Environments", Institute for Applied Forth Research, Inc., 1988
• and RPLMan.doc
  

[Bill Platt]

(11-03-2015 11:10 AM)Vtile Wrote:  Why is that RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) is not RPN (Reverse Polish Notation = arguments before commands) programming, in sense that arguments are given before commands and there is atleast two accumulators where the "data" is "loaded" before execution.

You need to RTFM41.

RPN does not equal RPL. Similar in some respects; completely different in others. Even the stacks aren't the same! 4 ENTER 2 ENTER + returns 4 on RPN, and 6 on RPL...RPL has numbered stack levels and a command line which is not level 1. ENTER in RPL functions contextually either as ENTER or DUPlicate. All RPN machines have a special programming logical space. This is not true in RPL as RPL has multiple object types on the stack including programs. Looping in RPL is GTO and GSB and Flags and all that jazz. Which is again in special programming space. RPL is IF-THen, For, Repeat, Do, etc (like pascal...sort of). All programs in RPL are saved as objects no different than any variable. Variables are named and declared. RPL has extensive stack manipulation tools and commands and you can build programs that sort of act like RPN but really why would you torture yourself that way other than for simple things? You have a real language.
If you love RPN programing, just load Hrastprogrammer's emulator, or Christoph Giesselink's emulator, onto your 50 and run a 41CX virtually.

You need to read and slow down. And the hint above is important: you need to read mostly HP48 (and HP49) period stuff because that is what RPL is and ran as for over 15 years. The 50G is new hardware that is all.

PS RPL handles Algebraic objects...you don't have to turn all equations into Reverse Polish...it is more different than similar, once you dig past the superficial similarities. (Basically RPL is the most powerful broadly useful interface for a high powered handheld, ever.)

[Vtile]

The notation itself is nothing odd or weird given that I have some hours spend with Instruction List programming used in PLCs which is assembly like mixed "RPN and PN" language(s). I just lack of knowledge the oddities and the instruction/command/function/flag sets, the programming in UserRPL itself is not a problem.

Code:


Simatic S5 AWL/Instruction List
---------------
     :L   DD  412
     :L   KG +1000000+01
     :+G
     :T   DD  412
     :L   DD  412
     :L   KG +1000000+05
     :<G
     :JC  =M004
     :L   DD  412
     :L   KG +1000000+05
     :-G
     :T   DD  412
M003 :
M004 :

[Vtile]

Thank you Gents, good tips and some gems at these posts. I find the article of the birth and reasoning behind RPL really interesting.

(11-03-2015 11:19 AM)Gjermund Skailand Wrote:  I suggest you look at

http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/apps/editors/emacs211a.zip

Do a complete install with SDiag and extable on SD-card.
Then run AsnEmacs

Then you get an extended editor with description of USER-rpl (and all others commands as well) on the calculator.
I find it very helpful

Best regards
Gjermund

(11-03-2015 12:24 PM)Dwight Sturrock Wrote:  A useful resource is:

UserRPL stack commands
Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 8 July 2007, 3:51 a.m.

This article is located on this forum.

As with any programming environment, you don't have to know all the features for it to be useful. The unlimited stack with 7 or so levels visible makes it worthwhile learning the basics of this machine.

(11-03-2015 01:40 PM)peacecalc Wrote:  Hello Vtile,

I don't know where your problem exactly is:

Quote:Why is that RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) is not RPN (Reverse Polish Notation = arguments before commands) programming, in sense that arguments are given before commands and there is atleast two accumulators where the "data" is "loaded" before execution.

The question "Why" can only answered by developers of the family 48/49/50. They intended that programming language and found it useful for "future user" (meant in the times of the beginning of the product family).

From LISP comes the abilities for working with lists and from RPN you get the abilities working with a stack. But some structure are not as consequent as expected:

For instance the IF THEN ELSE END construct:

<< 1, IF THEN 2, ELSE 3, END >> will result 2, after evaluation same result when you use << IF 1, THEN 2, ELSE 3, END >>

That is dued to rules for high level languages. The IF works like a function so the boolean (happy birthday 200 years yesterday) evaluation can be done afterwards IF or before (like RPN).

And at last a little tip:

For bigger programming projects avoid using stack-commands, the programs are very hard to understand some times later (or for other persons).

And of course there are actually less questions (and answers) about the hp 50g,
because that machine exist some years. But the people who are new with that machine have to do some hard work nearly 1600 pages of handbooks. And an enormous treasure of knowledge of experienced user. It is a treasure you have to search for some places same as a lot of users and I do: hpmuseum, hpcalc, comp.sys.hp48 and last not least: hp own's site mobiles and handhelds concerning

greetings
peaceglue

Indeed and 30 years of cumulated knowledge (=the experienced users) to take found out.

(11-03-2015 03:20 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  

(11-03-2015 11:10 AM)Vtile Wrote:  Why is that RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) is not RPN (Reverse Polish Notation = arguments before commands) programming, in sense that arguments are given before commands and there is atleast two accumulators where the "data" is "loaded" before execution.

I recommend the reading of:

• "RPL: A Mathematical Control Language", by W. C. Wickes, published in "Programming Environments", Institute for Applied Forth Research, Inc., 1988
• and RPLMan.doc
  

The problem with 48 documentation is that 48 is not compatible to 50 at all aspects or is it? RPL Programming Guide from Goodies Disk 4. is a gem, discrace that HP didn't update it when they did launch 49 and 50 calculators, that is one documentation that should be in HPs own download section. *mad*