New third party firmware (Not HP'PRIME TEAM)

[compsystems]

FRN> https://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php...16#p193916

[Joe Horn]

Please note: There's a HUGE difference between "third firmware" (HP) and "third party firmware" (not HP). The above link is about the latter.

[debrouxl]

What, no technical replies about this new third-party firmware on this board ?!
The original announcement in English, on a (nowadays) relatively low-activity message board best known for TI community activity, is linked from the end of the news item pointed by compsystems.

At long last, something beats my crappy PoC from nearly a year and a half ago: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-1789.html
An ELF loader + GDBstub is much more useful than displaying colored stripes on a screen, it's a major milestone on the road to useful arbitrary third-party OS - presumably starting with Linux, of course - running on the Prime

[DrD]

I much prefer to follow the hp official release process. "The team" has embedded considerable, coordinated effort to bring hardware and software together, professionally, in as a bug free production, as they can.

Why should anyone expect a third party firmware release to offer any significant advantage to deviate from official channel releases? If there is commercial interest involved here, some advertisement, at least describing the product, might have its rewards. Someone using this firmware ought to be at least 'suspicious' about unintended issues, such as virus, potential hardware damage, or invalidation for classroom use, etc.

-Dale-

[salvomic]

(12-28-2015 11:20 AM)DrD Wrote:  I much prefer to follow the hp official release process. "The team" has embedded considerable, coordinated effort to bring hardware and software together, professionally, in as a bug free production, as they can.
...
-Dale-

I agree: we must thank our HP Team also 'cause they hear our requests and suggestions and often they include some ideas of ours in the firmware.
In every thing that has a firmware I prefer to follow the "firm's road", as they know where it must go sure better than our...
However, said that, I appreciate also the effort of whom want contribute to have a better firmware and their suggestions...

Salvo

[Claudio L.]

(12-28-2015 08:45 AM)debrouxl Wrote:  What, no technical replies about this new third-party firmware on this board ?!

Here we are, year-and-a-half later, and most technical comments posted in your original thread:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-1789.html

are still valid today, so there's not much more to add.

Back then we were discussing ways to dump hardware registers. GDB stub will surely help there, but not much more has happened in all that time. Either there's no interest, or there's not enough qualified people. Most young people nowadays would rather code Javascript than anything low-level, and much rather download a ready-made app than trying to code their own (even if it's for fun). I mention young people because they are the demographic with the most spare time.
I'm from a generation before, and like many other people in this forum, we are capable of doing what you want to see done, but we have other things in life going on.
I've been working on the newRPL project since early 2014, and now it's actually a perfectly usable firmware for the 50g, although it's barely more than a basic scientific calculator in its current state. With the 50g hardware being discontinued (or about to be), I'm interested in seeing newRPL ported to the HP Prime as well.
However, my spare time is very limited, and I'm afraid if I get into developing for the Prime it will set back the newRPL project by months or years.
There's a desperate need for more manpower in all these hobby projects, and not much we can do about that.

[alexzkter]

(12-28-2015 07:00 PM)compsystems Wrote:  on the new firmware you could install eg xCAS full version, maxima, etc. Arduino interface, newRPL, emu50, tiemu etc,

Nouveau firmware tiers HP Prime - contrôle total en vidéo

Not even a "Hello world" on the screen, just a black screen. That's not "total control"...

[Paul Dale]

(12-28-2015 11:20 AM)DrD Wrote:  Why should anyone expect a third party firmware release to offer any significant advantage to deviate from official channel releases?

We managed this on the 20b/30b hardware with the 34S firmware. It isn't impossible, just an huge amount of effort.


- Pauli

[DrD]

In the formative decades, ala 70's-90's perhaps, hacking commercial software based products, often resulted in improved utility value. More often it led to additional troubles, including outright device destruction. The 'pride of accomplishment' in hacking today's genre of computing devices seems so petty, as to be completely juvenile, and boring. If ones skills are so finely tuned in this area, why not put them to better use? Make your own calculator, with your own superior feature-set, for example. That would be far more self aggrandizing.

If you're able to improve the software, why not convert your skill to "the general good," or possible financial gain, by working WITH product design leaders? If you're not quite that good, as hackers, the production will speak for itself. In any event, just putting alien firmware out there, after spending hours and hours of devious methods, is similar to watching terrorists build an I.E.D., only to have it blow up prematurely, as society continues without further concern...

[Claudio L.]

(12-30-2015 12:26 PM)DrD Wrote:  In the formative decades, ala 70's-90's perhaps, hacking commercial software based products, often resulted in improved utility value. More often it led to additional troubles, including outright device destruction. The 'pride of accomplishment' in hacking today's genre of computing devices seems so petty, as to be completely juvenile, and boring. If ones skills are so finely tuned in this area, why not put them to better use? Make your own calculator, with your own superior feature-set, for example. That would be far more self aggrandizing.

I think we are all talking about the same thing. Hacking the existing firmware is not the point here. Creating a new firmware from scratch is comparable to creating your own calculator. CPU, keyboard and screen don't define the calculator as much as the software that runs on it.
Hardware nowadays is more of a commodity, as software becomes more ubiquitous.
The entry barrier to design and produce hardware is very high, versus developing software so it makes sense for hobby projects to repurpose existing commercial hardware.
I agree that the goal is "your own superior feature set", that's exactly what we are talking about here.

(12-30-2015 12:26 PM)DrD Wrote:  If you're able to improve the software, why not convert your skill to "the general good," or possible financial gain, by working WITH product design leaders? If you're not quite that good, as hackers, the production will speak for itself. In any event, just putting alien firmware out there, after spending hours and hours of devious methods, is similar to watching terrorists build an I.E.D., only to have it blow up prematurely, as society continues without further concern...

Comparing new software development to a terrorist act seems completely out of line here.
Creating a new firmware doesn't require "devious methods", just reading some manuals and basic information about the physical device.
newRPL allows you to run your calculations with up to 2000 digits of precision, or about 100x faster than before. I fail to see the "devious" part or any terror in that.
The way of doing business is to create open ecosystems where third party developers can create and expand on the products you sell, bringing new life to them (or extending its current one). Just look at hpcalc.org and you'll see why an open ecosystem pays off big time.
The WP34S project probably extended the life of the 20b/30b hardware (not by much, given the low volumes, but still), and was actually encouraged by HP.
On the Prime, this is not currently encouraged by HP, but is not being actively blocked by them either. As long as the alternative firmware does not erode sales or compromises their exam certification, I don't see why they would oppose.

[DrD]

(12-30-2015 01:46 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  Comparing new software development to a terrorist act seems completely out of line here.

Please don't hang your hat on the first part of that phrase, the pertinent part is the last... "if it blows up prematurely," essentially, who cares?

To clarify, it's not about "new software development," you missed that part. It's about non-descriptive third party software (in this case). Users may be able to read something about it, but third party firmware is unrestricted in consequence, ("if it blows up prematurely...").

(12-30-2015 01:46 PM)Claudio L. Continuing, also ' Wrote:  Creating a new firmware doesn't require "devious methods", just reading some manuals and basic information about the physical device.

A suite of tools are employed to crack existing software, etc. These 'devices' are the "devious," [devised], means referred to; not to mention the many hours spent in the pursuit. The Prime, as far as I know, is not open source. I know that legalities are the first victims to fall, and to be clear, I'm just a sidewalk citizen here, not attempting to police anything.

To me, legitimate software improvements have much more intrinsic value, if for no other reason than hp support. Suitably motivated, anyone can hack the device, but few can you do that with the blessing of full hp support. This is just my personal opinion, so no need for further discussion. I completely understand that my opinion isn't likely to change entrenched philosophy.

The only take away is that I'm not, personally, interested in this third party offering; but remain open to what might result if it does get buy in, in a legitimate way. Thus, it's merely my response to the OP, questioning the lack of interest in this third party firmware...

Good luck, Claudio!

-Dale-

[Claudio L.]

(12-30-2015 03:08 PM)DrD Wrote:  I know that legalities are the first victims to fall, and to be clear, I'm just a sidewalk citizen here, not attempting to police anything.

You seem to have the idea that there's something illegal in replacing the firmware, as implied by your mentions of legality and the use of the word "devious" = dishonest.
Replacing the firmware is no different from buying a Windows laptop and installing Linux, or buying a car and replacing the rims with sporty ones, or buying a house with 2 bedrooms, but use one of them as an office instead. In all these examples, you are not using the device as intended by the manufacturer, but there's nothing dishonest or illegal about it.
On the case in point, you own the device, and have a license to use the provided software on it. Using the device with other software (under a different license) does not constitute any violation. However, using their software outside the original device may be a violation of the license.
Taking the existing firmware and modifying it does violate the license, so it's illegal, but that's not what is being suggested here.

[matthiaspaul]

(12-30-2015 03:08 PM)DrD Wrote:  To clarify, it's not about "new software development," you missed that part. It's about non-descriptive third party software (in this case). Users may be able to read something about it, but third party firmware is unrestricted in consequence, ("if it blows up prematurely...").

Actually, proprietary firmware is unrestricted in consequences as well - just think about the shameful large number of severe bugs in the Prime.

And in the case of closed-source software, you even have to blindly trust in the competence and integrity of the developers. The list of proprietary software which should better not be trusted if you take care about security and privacy is virtually endless, and this even includes many products from some of the largest software companies.

Open-source software isn't free of bugs, of course, but you don't need to trust anyone, if you don't want to. Instead, you can inspect the source code yourself and even build your own binaries if you don't trust others doing this for you. If you find bugs or shortcomings, you can fix them yourself, instead of relying on some product manager's business plan, who might not be interested into fixing your problems for commercial reasons in the first place or might abandon the product anytime later, even if you depend on it (see f.e. the still quite long list of remaining unresolved bugs in the now discontinued HP 50g firmware - if this would be open-source software, you could bet on that none of these bugs would remain at this time). So, using open-source software you are, at least potentially, much more on the safe side then using closed-source proprietary software.

Regarding documentation. There's good and bad documentation. This does not depend on if the software is proprietary or not. In fact, some of the best software documentation I have ever seen is for "alternative" close-source software products and open-source software.

Quote:

(12-30-2015 01:46 PM)Claudio L. Continuing, also ' Wrote:  Creating a new firmware doesn't require "devious methods", just reading some manuals and basic information about the physical device.

A suite of tools are employed to crack existing software, etc. These 'devices' are the "devious," [devised], means referred to;

You don't need to crack existing software to upload a new firmware onto a device such as the Prime, you just need to read the processor manuals. The existing software gets replaced by a new one. Nothing devious here.

Quote:The Prime, as far as I know, is not open source.

It isn't.

Quote:I know that legalities are the first victims to fall,

There's nothing illegal in reflashing a device with a different firmware. You'll obviously loose the vendor's warranty, but that's it.

Quote:Suitably motivated, anyone can hack the device, but few can you do that with the blessing of full hp support.

We are lucky to have a few HP developers in this forum who help out with some user-level support in their free time in exchange for learning about problems with their products first hand and getting feedback about how to possibly improve their products. It's beneficial for both parties.

Official HP support was great decades ago. Today, it is for the most part non-existant, unfortunately - most of those hotliners are completely clueless about their products.

Greetings,

Matthias

[Gerald H]

Quote:

Quote:The Prime, as far as I know, is not open source.

It isn't.

I'm confused by the negatives - Are you, matthiaspaul, trying to say the Prime is open source?

[matthiaspaul]

(12-31-2015 08:47 AM)Gerald H Wrote:  

Quote:It isn't.

I'm confused by the negatives - Are you, matthiaspaul, trying to say the Prime is open source?

[No,] I am not [trying to say the Prime is open source]. ;->

[Yes,] it (the Prime) is not [open source].

Greetings,

Matthias

[Gerald H]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Jean-Baptiste Boric]

(12-30-2015 10:05 AM)alexzkter Wrote:  Not even a "Hello world" on the screen, just a black screen. That's not "total control"...

Your wish has been granted : https://github.com/boricj/ripem/commit/c...84713365a5.

Hi all, I'm the guy behind Rip'Em.

Reading this thread proved to be quite entertaining, so I'll just make some clarifications here in case you missed the original announcement on Omnimaga (https://www.omnimaga.org/hp-prime/announ...-hp-prime/).

The goal of Rip'Em is not to patch/modify the official firmware or to compete with it. It's meant to be a dead-simple ELF launcher so that I or other people can do native programming on the HP Prime for fun.

Obviously, there's no guarantee whatsoever that Rip'Em works, that it won't blow up your calculator or that it'll be useful to you. This is for people that want to tinker with the calculator beyond what the official firmware offers and/or run Doom, NetBSD, newRPL or whatever else on it. It's not for people who just want their calculator to calculate or don't want to void their warranty.

[ColinJDenman]

(01-01-2016 11:50 PM)Jean-Baptiste Boric Wrote:  Hi all, I'm the guy behind Rip'Em.

Reading this thread proved to be quite entertaining...

I think you're being very generous. Some of the posts have been astonishing.
Especially considering the demographic of this museum site, the age range, tinkering and *non-student* nature of most (?) of the members.
Very well done.

[debrouxl]

Yeah, some of the posts in this thread were very disappointing, considering the demographic, as you wrote...

[Kevin Ouellet]

Don't wonder why almost every HP Prime programmer who are interested in third-party firmware development as well as advanced programming have almost completely stopped contributing to MoHPC.

I normally don't advertise calculator sites on another calculator site, but the hostility and ignorance towards anything that is not educational use of the calculator on HP Museum is appalling and I can't see this forum as a viable place to discuss advanced HP PPL programming and third-party HP Prime firmware/ASM/C development. Not to mention the bigotry towards TI users (even from moderators). As a result, I recommend people who are interested in those to discuss about it on TI-Planet or CodeWalrus instead.

https://tiplanet.org/forum/index.php?lang=en (mostly French)
https://codewalr.us/index.php?action=forum (English)