HP Prime - worthy successor to HP-71B ?

[pier4r]

(09-27-2017 06:09 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Actually Valentin used the term RePeLlent.

Couldn't agree more.

Do we really have factions in this small community?

For example sysrpl, masd, and so on looks hard to me, but not bad. RPL is really lovely.

And I think the prime has a lot of potential (especially with the android/windows app if they get continuously evolved). The PPL language is quite straightforward resembling many others (one is basic for example) so it is a neat platform to develop solutions and skills that then can be translated in other languages.

I miss a bit the libraries to facilitate programming, but the community will slowly develop them (and the prime is fast enough). (hopefully I will do my part, redundant or not) Another thing that is missing is a standalone documentation. In this case I dont think it is the duty of the community to extract the documentation from the calculator.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

(09-27-2017 07:04 PM)pier4r Wrote:  Do we really have factions in this small community?

Regarding this question we certainly do! One day we have to make a poll - regarding RPL there are only two positions: Love it or hate it. Nothing in between.

And the other two fractions are calculator collectors and calculator users. Those two intersect to some degree at least. Not so the RPL fractions ;-)

Regards Max

(Calculator collector - RPL hater)

[pier4r]

I understand saying something like "look, RPL is not for me, but i know it is a powerful language".

For example I always think that HPGCC should be used by me, but then I think about possible need of using pointers and so on and I say "nah, I am not the type for it", but I do not hate it.

So I don't get the "hate" part.

Also the 50g can be nevertheless be used fruitfully for many useful things, first and foremost to print pretty equations (captured in a GROB).

[Maximilian Hohmann]

(09-27-2017 07:16 PM)pier4r Wrote:  So I don't get the "hate" part.

The hate part comes from the experience of "upgrading" your trusted HP-67 or HP-41 to an HP-28 or HP-48 and then finding out that even after working through a 1000-page manual you were still unable to write a program for it.

I think it is genetically coded somehow. There are people who can understand/master RPL and then there are those (like me) who simply can't, no matter how hard they try. This is really frustrating, especially if one does really well in his field of work otherwise. They paid me for writing software and equations for building airliners, but I can not write a simple program to solve a quadratic equation in RPL. It is totally beyond me.

[Vincent Weber]

I don't actually *hate* RPL the way Valentin and others do. I have been programming in RPL a lot back in 1991 on my trusty 48SX. It is an interesting, unified paradigm. I actually like its LISP side (self modifying software) but I came to dislike its FORTH side: everthing is in the stack, you must remember where, and do acrobatic DUP, ROT, ROLL, OVER...statements just to place things right. Which is a completely useless activity (the fun side apart) when you try to program an algorithm, all the more than you are on a handled device, so you need straight to the point simplicity rather than a full fledge OO language, for which I would prefer Java or C# on my PC...
Simple RPN and BASIC share this "simplicity on mobility" concept. And advanced BASIC such as HP-71B one, TI-89 one or HPPL have nothing to envy to RPL as far as sophisticated data types are concerned - you can easily manipulate matrices, lists, complex numbers with them, in a much more natural way that in RPL.
RPN made sense back in the days where algebraic entry was a pain (like on the TI-59) typing all these parentheses in the blind. It still makes sense on pocket calculators, because of its inner simplicity and elegance. But RPL is a weird hybrid concept: mixing RPN with commands - which turns into unnecessary complexity.

As someone once said: RPL makes complicated things simple, but simple things complicated
And complicated things can be done even easier than RPL in advanced BASIC.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(09-27-2017 07:04 PM)pier4r Wrote:  

(09-27-2017 06:09 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Actually Valentin used the term RePeLlent.

Couldn't agree more.

Do we really have factions in this small community?

You bet we have!

Welcome aboard. ;)

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(09-27-2017 08:01 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  

(09-27-2017 07:16 PM)pier4r Wrote:  So I don't get the "hate" part.

The hate part comes from the experience of "upgrading" your trusted HP-67 or HP-41 to an HP-28 or HP-48 and then finding out that even after working through a 1000-page manual you were still unable to write a program for it.

I think it is genetically coded somehow. There are people who can understand/master RPL and then there are those (like me) who simply can't, no matter how hard they try. This is really frustrating, especially if one does really well in his field of work otherwise. They paid me for writing software and equations for building airliners, but I can not write a simple program to solve a quadratic equation in RPL. It is totally beyond me.

I propose a toast to you!

[Garth Wilson]

(09-27-2017 08:01 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  I think it is genetically coded somehow. There are people who can understand/master RPL and then there are those (like me) who simply can't, no matter how hard they try.

I myself cannot latch onto C, after having been through the K&R book and part of another one. To me, C is an absolute disaster of a language that never should have hit the streets. When I got into Forth though, I used Leo Brodie's book "Starting Forth," and it just seemed totally natural for me, and I immediately picked it up and flew with it (strange differences in the HP-71 notwithstanding). As I was discussing this with a friend, he said I seemed to have an RPN brain. I do believe there's something innate about it in the brain.

That's not to say background doesn't have anything to do with it though, as I understand the Korean language is RPN, so native Korean speakers find RPN-based languages to me more natural than Americans generally do. Where we say "put on shoes," they would say something more like "shoes, install," putting "shoes" on the "stack" and then saying what to do with them, instead of the verb, object order of English.

I don't know RPL, but what I've seen of it appears to be a lot like Forth. Actually, my HP-71 is where I learned Forth. I prefer Forth over BASIC, even though the 71's Forth implementation is very poor compared to its BASIC implementation. The HP-71 with its outstanding BASIC, especially with the math module and the many Language-EXtension files I got from the CHHU Chronicle, was very powerful, certainly much more powerful than the 41, and I even typed a lot on the 71 at 30wpm back in the day; but for a calculator, I reach for my 41cx every day, and my two HP-71's sit untouched for months at a time.

[Gilles59]

I love rpl but i think that one major problem with the hp48-50 is the source code editor.
With the 50g in RPL mode you also can do a lot of things in an algebraic Way. What i dont like in rpl is how to create local variables, the lack of "exit" command, and some inconsistancies in the lists commands. Newrpl improve this. I also think from long ago that RPL and algebraic could be combined in a better way. I remember a thread about this some Time ago (i wrote this with my smartphone, sorry for mistakes)

[Maximilian Hohmann]

(09-27-2017 09:02 PM)Garth Wilson Wrote:  I myself cannot latch onto C, after having been through the K&R book and part of another one.

I paid off our house programming in C. And I did not even read a text book on it... At university I attended a (voluntary) course in FORTRAN - back then engineers were not yet supposed to write programs themselves, one would rather give the algorithm to a programmer who would code it in whatever language he liked. And when they placed a unix workstation on my desk I just did in C what I had learned to do in FORTRAN (and BASIC on my home computer). Totally natural for me, not worth a single thought. In the beginning, the lack of functions in C was a surprise - but include a couple of libraries and you can do whatever you want.

When someone is coming up with a programming challenge on this forum I usually write little program in C to solve it. Using the terminal of my MacBook pro with it's native "vi" and C compiler. I never show my results as one is supposed to use a calculator...

[brickviking]

(09-27-2017 08:18 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  ...but I came to dislike its FORTH side: everthing is in the stack, you must remember where, and do acrobatic DUP, ROT, ROLL, OVER...statements just to place things right.

The "problem", if indeed you could call it that, is that RPN (and to a very large degree RPL) both require time spent on thinking about problem shuffling. I.e. for an expression or function, you have to think more about where you want stuff while you're running the function. It tends to focus you on the order of solving rather than relying on someone else's model of precedence for mathematical and programming operators. I've seen variables used—sometimes liberally—to ease the impact of stack rotates.

(09-27-2017 08:18 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  As someone once said: RPL makes complicated things simple, but simple things complicated
And complicated things can be done even easier than RPL in advanced BASIC.

I don't have enough BASIC or RPL experience to be able to evaluate that effectively, but I do know RPL's definitely not as readable as BASIC. As time goes on I'm getting more amazed just how "baroque" RPL can be, even with its efficiencies borrowed from Forth and RPN. I compare it to a C that has syscalls embedded into the language as keywords, inline processor assembly language and a built-in debugger. All on a calculator. Ahhh....Reminds me of Smalltalk.

(Post 102, revision 19)

[Hans Brueggemann]

the prime isn't a successor. it's a calculator made for enthusiasts who think that the prime is a good calculator.
my HP-71B controls GPIB instruments that i have in my home lab. whatever i want to do, the solution is just a handfull of keystrokes away, no matter whether that is long term data collection, statistical analysis, automated instrument calibration, or even transfer the data to a PC. once the data are in the PC, i can use spreadsheet calculations, with lots of memory, screen space, and a computational speed that the prime doesn't have.
that's why i would never buy a prime or trade an HP-71B for it: compared in terms of "numerical power", the prime runs circles around the HP-71B (some folks here may disagree, though...), but is easily outperformed by a PC. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to compare apples and oranges. what i want to say is: the prime's capabilities are extraordinary, but they cry for solving tasks that go far beyond the capability of its user interface: no real keyboard, and a screen so small, that my aging eyes recognize those tiny numbers just as "ant football". too much power in too small a box.
bottom line: when it comes to maximum i/o control and ease of use in the most efficient desk top real estate: the HP-71B wins. when you have to crack a tougher nut, use a PC. when you need an every-day calculator in your pocket, get an emulator on your smart phone. when you need an outstanding computational toy, well,...

[pier4r]

(09-27-2017 08:01 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  but I can not write a simple program to solve a quadratic equation in RPL. It is totally beyond me.

I think this is normal when one knows that another tool is better for the job given one's perspective of opportunity costs. "Do I spend 20h learning RPL and be a minimum proficient, or I spend 20h to solve problems in what I know well already?" there is no doubt. I do the same.

(09-27-2017 09:43 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  When someone is coming up with a programming challenge on this forum I usually write little program in C to solve it.

That's a pity. I would think that every computable solution is welcomed instead. Post them!

(09-27-2017 11:28 PM)Hans Brueggemann Wrote:  the prime's capabilities are extraordinary, but they cry for solving tasks that go far beyond the capability of its user interface: no real keyboard, and a screen so small,

This is unfortunately true also for all the smartphones since 2008 ~ 2010 . Super powerful, but mostly to consume information rather than processing some.

Indeed also with the 50g I develop with the PC and then I let the 50g work when the algorithm is stable.

[brickviking]

(09-28-2017 07:58 AM)pier4r Wrote:  Indeed also with the 50g I develop with the PC and then I let the 50g work when the algorithm is stable.

I'm a bit divided with the 50G. Sometimes I find that if I'm forced to write on the 50G, it's better because I'm not then distracted by "Ooo, shiney pretty thing!" on the PC's screen. It also hopefully makes me more used to finding stuff in the menus on the calculator itself. On the other hand, when I need to look up something in a manual or on the forums, because I don't have physical manuals on hand (except the AUR) I need to go open one up on the computer screen anyhow. At least in that case, I am scratching my head as to which is better—use the PC keyboard in an emulator or editor or poke buttons on a calculator.

As an aside, if I don't remember what menu a command is in, I've found it's very much quicker to just switch into ALPHA mode and spell the command out. It's certainly quicker than looking it up in CATALOG or going to Appendix I in the AUR. I'm sure I can't be the only person finding that. Now THAT job could be made far easier with the full QWERTY keypad the HP-71B has. I've no idea how good the Prime is in comparison to the 50G as (1) I don't have a physical Prime, and (2) I haven't used the Prime emulator anywhere near enough to gain any facility with it.

(Post 103)

[pier4r]

(09-28-2017 08:32 AM)brickviking Wrote:  I'm a bit divided with the 50G. Sometimes I find that if I'm forced to write on the 50G, it's better because I'm not then distracted by "Ooo, shiney pretty thing!" on the PC's screen. It also hopefully makes me more used to finding stuff in the menus on the calculator itself. On the other hand, when I need to look up something in a manual or on the forums, because I don't have physical manuals on hand (except the AUR) I need to go open one up on the computer screen anyhow. At least in that case, I am scratching my head as to which is better—use the PC keyboard in an emulator or editor or poke buttons on a calculator.

Well for the pc that offers distraction, it depends on the person. Personally I dedicated a old (but gold) laptop for programming and it works really good. I cannot open amazon that it hangs (not because the system is poor, but because amazon has too much client side code). For the rest is ok: pdf, .mp4, .avi and so on.

So my workflow is:
- open a file in the repository (git) with notepad
- code
- transfer to the calculator
- test
- if needed, quick changes directly on the calc (and mirrored in the code) or fixed in the code. Another transfer on the calculator and so on.
- until it is stable and working.

In the past, pre 2013, I used emulators to develop. Since I found out that I can write direct text on the calculator (or I can transfer source files quickly) I dropped any emulator, that are clumsy for me, and I use the 50g itself for debugging. Also I get the "real" feedback.

The only problem is when I get syntax error and I do not know where, but I solve this building my programs slowly so I know that a syntax error can be only in the new added code.

This at least let me use the real 50g more. Otherwise I would use it way less and it would be a pity.

With the prime on android I do the same (copy, paste on the android screen) but I did not yet start a real development.

For newRPL for the moment I use only the desktop version because I do not want to play back and forth with the SD. Although newRPL is on the powerful PC (because it does not run on winXP anymore) that I open rarely.

[John Keith]

To me, the problem with BASIC/HPPL is that they are too "typing intensive" for use on a hand-held device like a calculator. Even the 71B with its QWERTY keyboard is not optimized for typing. The Prime and its language lend themselves to development of programs on a PC which are then transferred to the calculator. RPL, for better or worse, is a very terse language and equivalent programs tend to be significantly shorter.

The Prime is much faster than the HP 50 and has a much nicer display, but when I have a problem to solve (or see an interesting challenge on this site) It's the HP 50 that I reach for first.

Needless to say, I am one of those people who "gets" RPL. I knew FORTH from the microcontroller world and wrote many FORTH programs on the 71B. When I first saw the HP-28, RPL seemed natural to me. Of course others think differently! :-)

John

[pier4r]

(09-28-2017 12:48 PM)John Keith Wrote:  To me, the problem with BASIC/HPPL is that they are too "typing intensive" for use on a hand-held device like a calculator. Even the 71B with its QWERTY keyboard is not optimized for typing. The Prime and its language lend themselves to development of programs on a PC which are then transferred to the calculator. RPL, for better or worse, is a very terse language and equivalent programs tend to be significantly shorter.

This is also very true. Unless one has a proper querty. Note: I found the qwerty of the nokia E series good enough, I do not know the 71B.

[Vincent Weber]

(09-28-2017 02:09 PM)pier4r Wrote:  

(09-28-2017 12:48 PM)John Keith Wrote:  To me, the problem with BASIC/HPPL is that they are too "typing intensive" for use on a hand-held device like a calculator. Even the 71B with its QWERTY keyboard is not optimized for typing. The Prime and its language lend themselves to development of programs on a PC which are then transferred to the calculator. RPL, for better or worse, is a very terse language and equivalent programs tend to be significantly shorter.

This is also very true. Unless one has a proper querty. Note: I found the qwerty of the nokia E series good enough, I do not know the 71B.

The Prime has HPPL templates in menus for blocks, loops, conditionals, that are much more efficient than typing every letter on a qwerty keyboard. Just like every Casio or TI graphing calculator.
Even on the 71B the most common BASIC keyboards are directly available on the keyboard, reducing a lot the need for qwerty...

[pier4r]

(09-28-2017 03:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  The Prime has HPPL templates in menus for blocks, loops, conditionals, that are much more efficient than typing every letter on a qwerty keyboard. Just like every Casio or TI graphing calculator.
Even on the 71B the most common BASIC keyboards are directly available on the keyboard, reducing a lot the need for qwerty...

I am not sure.

I mean on the PC instead of typing => I write 'rhash' that then fasktkeys (windows) or atext(mac) convert to => . Sometimes I am pretty fast with letters and less with buttons.

This is a necessity (be quick) when you program with vim.

[Garth Wilson]

In the 1980's I typed a lot on my 71, but eased up when they discontinued it and I realized that if I wore out the keyboard, I wouldn't be able to get a replacement. I typed minutes in meetings, typed memos, letters, etc. (when most people did not have email yet, and circulating a memo meant printing it on my ThinkJet printer and going to the photocopier). I had 160KB of RAM, (I wanted the 256KB card-reader port RAM, but it was beyond my budget), and a full-featured text editor I wrote that made heavy use of some great LEX files developed by the user groups. Although I had the 80-column video interface and monitor, I wrote the text editor to specifically optimize usage for the one-line LCD, for portable use. Even though it's like looking at your work through a keyhole, it works surprisingly well if you can move that keyhole very nimbly around your work.

I was able to type at 30wpm on the 71, about 60% of the speed I could do on a full-sized keyboard. For programming, yes, the shortcut keys do help, but I did a lot of key re-assignments too, for the things I used most, and had different KEYS files for various jobs, along with their accompanying overlays. So considering the size of the 71, I would say it was no slouch for typing speed.