HP Classic upgrade kit - Multi Emulator (updated list of emulated models)

[Guenter Schink]

(02-14-2018 01:10 PM)Harald Wrote:  Sorry for the continued delay in getting the next batch ready. I am off work for the fourth week in a row and have no idea when I will be getting better.

Don't worry about me, get better hopefully
Günter

[Harald]

I thought rather then just stating my view, I'd ask other users about their opinion.
Tony has implemented an "SC" function which saves the continuos memory of the C models. The way it works is, if you press it, it saves the current state the machine, and then it recovers from there the next time the calculator is turned on. But only the next. After that it loses the continuous memory.
Now I was wondering if it might be good to keep that calculator configuration for all future power ups until the SC function is executed again.
What are your views on that?

Cheers,
Harald

[PANAMATIK]

(03-03-2018 04:55 PM)Harald Wrote:  I thought rather then just stating my view, I'd ask other users about their opinion.
Tony has implemented an "SC" function which saves the continuos memory of the C models. The way it works is, if you press it, it saves the current state the machine, and then it recovers from there the next time the calculator is turned on. But only the next. After that it loses the continuous memory.
Now I was wondering if it might be good to keep that calculator configuration for all future power ups until the SC function is executed again.
What are your views on that?

Cheers,
Harald

If "SC" not only saves the continuous memory but the complete current state of the machine, this can be dangerous. If the current calculator hangs somehow, it will hang forever (see example). You need at least a possibility to reset the current state, which starts the calculator as if batteries were newly inserted.

This is the reason why I implemented a "Clear All" procedure for the "Woodstock LP" firmware.

Bernhard

[Harald]

(03-03-2018 06:53 PM)PANAMATIK Wrote:  

(03-03-2018 04:55 PM)Harald Wrote:  I thought rather then just stating my view, I'd ask other users about their opinion.
Tony has implemented an "SC" function which saves the continuos memory of the C models. The way it works is, if you press it, it saves the current state the machine, and then it recovers from there the next time the calculator is turned on. But only the next. After that it loses the continuous memory.
Now I was wondering if it might be good to keep that calculator configuration for all future power ups until the SC function is executed again.
What are your views on that?

Cheers,
Harald

If "SC" not only saves the continuous memory but the complete current state of the machine, this can be dangerous. If the current calculator hangs somehow, it will hang forever (see example). You need at least a possibility to reset the current state, which starts the calculator as if batteries were newly inserted.

This is the reason why I implemented a "Clear All" procedure for the "Woodstock LP" firmware.

Bernhard

Sorry Bernhard, I should have been more precise. It only saves the continuous memory, not the complete state of the machine.
But your point is still valid I guess.

Cheers,
Harald

[Harald]

I have now fulfilled all the open orders and believe I have notified everyone who had shown interest in purchasing a board. So now I am open to new orders.

Cheers,
Harald

[teenix]

(03-03-2018 07:06 PM)Harald Wrote:  Sorry Bernhard, I should have been more precise. It only saves the continuous memory, not the complete state of the machine.
But your point is still valid I guess.

Cheers,
Harald

Hi Guys

The SC function saves and discards information as per the instructions given in the respective calculator owner manuals with Continuous Memory.

For example, the HP-29C loses the T, Z and Y registers, Last X and [Deg Rad Grd] status, programs are halted and the program pointer is set to the first program step.

cheers

Tony

[Harald]

(03-03-2018 09:53 PM)teenix Wrote:  

(03-03-2018 07:06 PM)Harald Wrote:  Sorry Bernhard, I should have been more precise. It only saves the continuous memory, not the complete state of the machine.
But your point is still valid I guess.

Cheers,
Harald

Hi Guys

The SC function saves and discards information as per the instructions given in the respective calculator owner manuals with Continuous Memory.

For example, the HP-29C loses the T, Z and Y registers, Last X and [Deg Rad Grd] status, programs are halted and the program pointer is set to the first program step.

cheers

Tony

Yes, and I think that is perfect.
What I am wondering is though, wouldn't it make more sense to save the continuous memory once, for example after loading a program and presetting registers, and then having the calculator power up in that condition every time. Now it would power up like that once, and the next time memory would be clear unless SC was executed again.

Cheers,
Harald

[teenix]

(03-03-2018 10:08 PM)Harald Wrote:  Yes, and I think that is perfect.
What I am wondering is though, wouldn't it make more sense to save the continuous memory once, for example after loading a program and presetting registers, and then having the calculator power up in that condition every time. Now it would power up like that once, and the next time memory would be clear unless SC was executed again.

Cheers,
Harald

Hi Harald

Once SC is used, the required CM data is stored and remains stored unless overwritten with a new SC command, or the particular CM is cleared from the PC Calculator Interface window.

Therefore the CM calculator model will always restart with the currently stored CM data put back into memory.

If while using the calculator, you change the memory, then you need to use the SC function again prior to turning off the power switch.

cheers

Tony

[rprosperi]

How about this:

For those models that originally had Continuous Memory, the emulator should behave the same way the original machine did (i.e. retain those portions of memory retained in the original machines), and other models of course would not. When powering-on, the "C" models would have the saved information loaded.

In addition, the "C" models would also have the "SC" feature that lets you save the same information to a file, which could be restored via some other specific manually-invoked command, thus letting you save a particular configuration (programs, registers, etc.) and easily restore it at some later date, but meanwhile use the normal "C" memory retention during power-off/power-on sessions.

So, you get the best of both worlds.

[teenix]

(03-04-2018 12:25 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  How about this:

For those models that originally had Continuous Memory, the emulator should behave the same way the original machine did (i.e. retain those portions of memory retained in the original machines), and other models of course would not. When powering-on, the "C" models would have the saved information loaded.

In addition, the "C" models would also have the "SC" feature that lets you save the same information to a file, which could be restored via some other specific manually-invoked command, thus letting you save a particular configuration (programs, registers, etc.) and easily restore it at some later date, but meanwhile use the normal "C" memory retention during power-off/power-on sessions.

So, you get the best of both worlds.

Hi Bob,

The SC feature came about because Harald's controller is powered by the host Classic Series calculator which was never designed for constant memory. When the power is switched off, everything goes off and all memory disappears.

It takes the PIC controller a little over a second to save the required CM information to its internal memory. Harald's controller would need special hardware to detect the switch off and then keep all the circuits running to reliably accomplish the data save before actually powering down, not an easy task.

Therefore the SC feature is a simple way of saving the required memory before switching off the CM models. This data is automatically recovered at power on and therefore mimics the real CM behaviour. The only problem is that you have to remember to save any 'new' memory data before turning it off, otherwise the previously stored data (if available) will be recovered next time it is switched on.

Its brother, the MultiCalc kit doesn't actually turn off. When switched off, it still runs in a special low power mode and memory stays active. However, just like the real calculators , if you remove power the memory will be lost and it will not recover at the next power on.

I'm not really sure that it is required, but to save extra CM files would mean tapping into the external program storage memory and reduce the storage space for programs for the programmable models.

cheers

Tony

[Harald]

(03-04-2018 01:09 AM)teenix Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 12:25 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  How about this:

For those models that originally had Continuous Memory, the emulator should behave the same way the original machine did (i.e. retain those portions of memory retained in the original machines), and other models of course would not. When powering-on, the "C" models would have the saved information loaded.

In addition, the "C" models would also have the "SC" feature that lets you save the same information to a file, which could be restored via some other specific manually-invoked command, thus letting you save a particular configuration (programs, registers, etc.) and easily restore it at some later date, but meanwhile use the normal "C" memory retention during power-off/power-on sessions.

So, you get the best of both worlds.

Hi Bob,

The SC feature came about because Harald's controller is powered by the host Classic Series calculator which was never designed for constant memory. When the power is switched off, everything goes off and all memory disappears.

It takes the PIC controller a little over a second to save the required CM information to its internal memory. Harald's controller would need special hardware to detect the switch off and then keep all the circuits running to reliably accomplish the data save before actually powering down, not an easy task.

Therefore the SC feature is a simple way of saving the required memory before switching off the CM models. This data is automatically recovered at power on and therefore mimics the real CM behaviour. The only problem is that you have to remember to save any 'new' memory data before turning it off, otherwise the previously stored data (if available) will be recovered next time it is switched on.

Its brother, the MultiCalc kit doesn't actually turn off. When switched off, it still runs in a special low power mode and memory stays active. However, just like the real calculators , if you remove power the memory will be lost and it will not recover at the next power on.

I'm not really sure that it is required, but to save extra CM files would mean tapping into the external program storage memory and reduce the storage space for programs for the programmable models.

cheers

Tony

Hi Tony,
I don't think saving extra CM files is required.
But here is what I observed now, the 34c is a good example:
Power on,
Crunch some numbers,
Power off,
Power on,
-> Pr Error (exactly as expected)
Crunch numbers,
SC,
Power off,
Power on,
-> 0.0000 (exactly as expected)
Power off,
Power on,
-> Pr Error (not as expected, apparently the CM file got cleared)

Cheers,
Harald

[teenix]

(03-04-2018 07:18 AM)Harald Wrote:  Power off,
Power on,
-> Pr Error (not as expected, apparently the CM file got cleared)

Cheers,
Harald

Hi Harald,

My apologies, I have made so many changes in the past few weeks it is hard to remember them all.

Looking back through my code notes, that was indeed the way it works. The reason is, in normal operation, if you remove power, the CM disappears. The Multicalc will do the same.

If you like, I will make the controller retain whatever is in its CM buffer. I can add a sub menu from the SC menu so that you can save CM as normal before power down and an extra menu item to clear CM status manually if desired.

cheers

Tony

[Harald]

(03-04-2018 09:07 AM)teenix Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 07:18 AM)Harald Wrote:  Power off,
Power on,
-> Pr Error (not as expected, apparently the CM file got cleared)

Cheers,
Harald

Hi Harald,

My apologies, I have made so many changes in the past few weeks it is hard to remember them all.

Looking back through my code notes, that was indeed the way it works. The reason is, in normal operation, if you remove power, the CM disappears. The Multicalc will do the same.

If you like, I will make the controller retain whatever is in its CM buffer. I can add a sub menu from the SC menu so that you can save CM as normal before power down and an extra menu item to clear CM status manually if desired.

cheers

Tony

Hi Tony,
No need to apologize!
All I wanted to do here was discuss the pros and cons of this.
Your suggestion sounds good to me!

Cheers,
Harald

[teenix]

(03-04-2018 09:18 AM)Harald Wrote:  Your suggestion sounds good to me!

Cheers,
Harald

All done

The [SC] menu item now has a new sub menu - [Str] [Clr] which will store or clear the CM data.
Help file updated and new download ready.

cheers

Tony

[Harald]

(03-04-2018 10:38 AM)teenix Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 09:18 AM)Harald Wrote:  Your suggestion sounds good to me!

Cheers,
Harald

All done

The [SC] menu item now has a new sub menu - [Str] [Clr] which will store or clear the CM data.
Help file updated and new download ready.

cheers

Tony

Thanks Tony, that was impressively quick!

Did you get my message about the compatibility of 25 and 25c programs?

Cheers,
Harald

[teenix]

(03-04-2018 11:19 AM)Harald Wrote:  Thanks Tony, that was impressively quick!

Did you get my message about the compatibility of 25 and 25c programs?

Cheers,
Harald

Yes, I fixed that. I sent an email yesterday

cheers
Tony

[Harald]

(03-04-2018 11:45 AM)teenix Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 11:19 AM)Harald Wrote:  Thanks Tony, that was impressively quick!

Did you get my message about the compatibility of 25 and 25c programs?

Cheers,
Harald

Yes, I fixed that. I sent an email yesterday

cheers
Tony

Ah, ok. That was my work email and I don't have access to that at home...

[rprosperi]

@Tony - Thanks for explaining, I understand your comments on the limited time to save data, it explains things a bit better for me.

Where/how is the CM data saved? I suggested a file, but I suppose whatever mechanism used for the CM is what I really intended. I was thinking more about your Multicalc than Harald's board. (I have received both units, but have not had time to explore them yet...).

Bottom line is I'm suggesting the CM models should behave as much like the originals as possible, and it seems like your latest change does just that. I agree the 'extra' saved state is not important, it just seemed feasible from the early discussion and of course is nice to have, if easy.

I hope to get to explore these soon; first your Multicalc, and then Harald's board (as I need to clean some inconsistent keys in the '45 host I acquired, and cut the case to access the USB port).

Thanks to both of you guys for these interesting emulators.

[PANAMATIK]

HP-80 converted to Multi calculator HP-67

I want to share how I inserted my new multi calculator board into an HP-80 and converted it to an HP-67 with vinyl overlay.

On the right the original HP-80 main board


Haralds and Tonys multi calculator is so easy to install and can repair any Classic calculator (except HP-65 hardware). It consumes only 50 mA, when switched ON, depending on the display contents.

In my case the original HP-80 had a ROM code issue and couldn't calculate some functions like square root or financial functions. But I didn't want to keep the business calculator HP-80 either, so I applied an HP-67 overlay, which originally was designed for the HP-67 calculator, but fits quite well to the classic case. Only the area above the first row is not covered and the front side label is a little short.

Many thanks and respect to Tony and Harald, this is a fantastic board for repairing or upgrading the HP "Classic" calculators.

Bernhard

[Harald]

(03-06-2018 01:27 PM)PANAMATIK Wrote:  HP-80 converted to Multi calculator HP-67

I want to share how I inserted my new multi calculator board into an HP-80 and converted it to an HP-67 with vinyl overlay.

On the right the original HP-80 main board


Haralds and Tonys multi calculator is so easy to install and can repair any Classic calculator (except HP-65 hardware). It consumes only 50 mA, when switched ON, depending on the display contents.

In my case the original HP-80 had a ROM code issue and couldn't calculate some functions like square root or financial functions. But I didn't want to keep the business calculator HP-80 either, so I applied an HP-67 overlay, which originally was designed for the HP-67 calculator, but fits quite well to the classic case. Only the area above the first row is not covered and the front side label is a little short.

Many thanks and respect to Tony and Harald, this is a fantastic board for repairing or upgrading the HP "Classic" calculators.

Bernhard

Hi Bernhard,

Thanks for sharing the pictures and congratulations on succesfully repairing and upgrading your HP80!
The board fits all the Classic calculators appart from the 65 and 55. The 55 has additional pins and different spacing on the connector to the keyboard PCB due to the prg/timer/run switch.

Cheers,
Harald