Beware not to buy HP Prime, if you are engineer!

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

Engineering comes in an almost infinite variety of flavors, especially after university is over and one works on the job. In my case a Ti59 was sufficient to see me through everything from high school to ph.d. Very little programming was required during that time (mostly in a course on numerical methods for solving differential equations and to evaluate some wind-tunnel and turbine engine measurements).
On the various jobs I have had after university I didn't need a pocket calculator at all. Ever. The work was all done on computers, the bigger the better. The only possible use for a calculator would have been to sum up my project hours so that I could invoice my employers, but I preferred to use Lotus 1-2-3 (later Excel) for that because it would print the invoice right on A4 paper instead of cash-register thermal paper stripes...

Could I have used a HP prime instead of my Ti59? Of course, but I think that writing a little keystroke program required to calibrate a series of laboratory measurements is a lot easier on a Ti59 (of HP67 or 41) than on a Prime or Ti Nspire.
Would a HP Prime have given me an advantage at university? Not regarding the calculations but it would certainly have eliminated the worries of ending up with a discharged battery during an exam which was a real threat because some of our exams lasted longer than the calculator's batteries.

[Vtile]

(05-05-2018 05:22 AM)Graham D. Wilson Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 04:06 AM)emersone12 Wrote:  The Prime's system is also a work in progress but the Prime should have been made as a customisable development platform just like the re-configurable HP30B/HP20B was able to be customized & developed by the communty into the successful work of art, the WP-34s.

Exactly^^

I would love the Prime to be an open system, but suspect that would invalidate its use in education. I also would love to see the Prime turned into an RPL machine. The Prime's internal software system is nowhere near as elegant as the 48/49/50 series recursive stack/object design.

The Prime is HP's most powerful calculator. My Prime Home screen is permanently on RPN and I love being able to use the Prime's RPN interface for exploration, just as Bill Wickes described this power of RPN when he introduced the HP28S in his book.
The Prime's keyboard layout is simple and elegant, and reminds me of the 28S, which I really like. But the software interface is inelegant and cludgy: e.g. I'm amazed that after five years the Prime's soft keys aren't yet customisable. Why not?

There is no [1/X] on Primes keyboard it should be enough for a proof.

What I have been wondering is that why it was not made in the way that it would have been delivered with two "memory boards" one for the educational phase with "lights for the exam mode and burned in ROM environment" and another board with more of the 48 mentality of do it all.

Still it doesn't have inverse key... no use.

I like it though, it is better in mechanical sense (from pictures) than what the 50g is and also the size of the unit is one step to the right direction .... smaller.

[dmmaster]

(05-05-2018 09:05 PM)Vtile Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 05:22 AM)Graham D. Wilson Wrote:  Exactly^^

I would love the Prime to be an open system, but suspect that would invalidate its use in education. I also would love to see the Prime turned into an RPL machine. The Prime's internal software system is nowhere near as elegant as the 48/49/50 series recursive stack/object design.

The Prime is HP's most powerful calculator. My Prime Home screen is permanently on RPN and I love being able to use the Prime's RPN interface for exploration, just as Bill Wickes described this power of RPN when he introduced the HP28S in his book.
The Prime's keyboard layout is simple and elegant, and reminds me of the 28S, which I really like. But the software interface is inelegant and cludgy: e.g. I'm amazed that after five years the Prime's soft keys aren't yet customisable. Why not?

There is no [1/X] on Primes keyboard it should be enough for a proof.

What I have been wondering is that why it was not made in the way that it would have been delivered with two "memory boards" one for the educational phase with "lights for the exam mode and burned in ROM environment" and another board with more of the 48 mentality of do it all.

Still it doesn't have inverse key... no use.

I like it though, it is better in mechanical sense (from pictures) than what the 50g is and also the size of the unit is one step to the right direction .... smaller.

Do you think that the keyboard is still today important?
It depends. If it is for school, it should be a bit "toy", for kids, for having fun, playing games on it,...

Thank you for your post.


"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy"

[Vtile]

Naturally the keyboard is a really big part of the whole. If you do not have inputs then you can not get outputs.

I must say that I haven't seen the prime at live, but what I can recall from the pictures it is guide a bit smaller than 50g and the enter is definedly in better position, while I'm not "ENTER aficionado" as some older folks here. Technically it should be possible to push the 50g to DM42 housing.

[Guenter Schink]

(05-05-2018 09:05 PM)Vtile Wrote:  There is no [1/X] on Primes keyboard it should be enough for a proof.

Have a closer look at the [divide] key and relax.
Günter

[dmmaster]

(05-05-2018 09:29 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 09:05 PM)Vtile Wrote:  There is no [1/X] on Primes keyboard it should be enough for a proof.

Have a closer look at the [divide] key and relax.
Günter

1/x is basics, at least at the time of early HP calculators, it must have been there. On the hp48, it was there.
Probably, maths have changed.

[Vtile]

(05-05-2018 09:29 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 09:05 PM)Vtile Wrote:  There is no [1/X] on Primes keyboard it should be enough for a proof.

Have a closer look at the [divide] key and relax.
Günter

I see there x^-1, but..

Let me see..
[1]
[Enter]
[X]
[/]

[X]
[Shift]
[/]

X
[inverse]

...
Much better would have been to put the X^2 to shifted Enter and put the inverse to the key where is now the X^2
Also those () and , belongs in shifted layers, but as Algebraic machine you have no other option than make these sub optimal features.

My 50 cents only.

[Arno K]

Well, my 5 cent.
I bought the Prime 4 years ago and have used it in my helping school very often, I always reminded my 49G+ which was sitting in a drawer as a more capable device and even bought a 50G last year as the 49G+ had two broken keys, but I finally stuck to the Prime after I had reread all available documentation for the 50G and went through the examples I had written down years ago, it is waiting to be sold.
As the Prime is a new device (remember the years of development for the 4x-series ), its speed and its easy programming language it IS far superior to all calculators I have ever used, have you ever tried something like the methods used in Surface integrals on other calculators, I dpubt it will be as easy as with this little programm, and there are lots of other examples.
Any kind of physics, chemistry and biology problems can be solved with the Prime, perhaps not without deeper insight in the question, but in my opinion technology must not be used when it can be omitted (a simple translation of my best liked quote : Wenn es nicht erforderlich ist, Technologie im Unterricht einzusetzen, ist es erforderlich, Technologie nicht im Unterricht einzusetzen.
So if I don't understand what is to be done I should either not do it or otherwise be capable of solving it myself or writing a programme to solve it.
Arno

[grsbanks]

(05-05-2018 08:33 PM)dmmaster Wrote:  Quora gives here a good definition, just quoting from Quora:

Since when has a bunch of spammers been authoritative on anything, especially highly technical matters such as calculators?

[dmmaster]

(05-06-2018 10:44 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 08:33 PM)dmmaster Wrote:  Quora gives here a good definition, just quoting from Quora:

Since when has a bunch of spammers been authoritative on anything, especially highly technical matters such as calculators?

You are right. Quora is not a good reference.
Wikipedia would be maybe slightly better?
Even wikipedia, not so sure.
"Some articles on Wikipedia may contain significant factual inaccuracies, i.e. information that is verifiably wrong."eg. link

[pier4r]

(05-06-2018 10:44 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  Since when has a bunch of spammers been authoritative on anything, especially highly technical matters such as calculators?

As every populated social network, quora has a lot of low level discussions but sometimes a gem drops here and there. Unfortunately it had a lot more potential that was wasted due to the new policies and not so regulated user base.

Said that, it is unlikely that quoting one user makes up for an authoritative answer. Once again a crack in the argument.

[dmmaster]

(05-06-2018 12:51 PM)pier4r Wrote:  

(05-06-2018 10:44 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  Since when has a bunch of spammers been authoritative on anything, especially highly technical matters such as calculators?

As every populated social network, quora has a lot of low level discussions but sometimes a gem drops here and there. Unfortunately it had a lot more potential that was wasted due to the new policies and not so regulated user base.

Said that, it is unlikely that quoting one user makes up for an authoritative answer. Once again a crack in the argument.

Maybe. It is a bit like yahoo forums, facebook, or youtube... There should be more moderation on these networks/webpages. Quora may sometime be actually quite helpful. It may give some information about very various things, without being to complex.

The best would be to have a list of features, sort of database of all functions and functionalities of the graphical HP calcs (48sx,...48gx,... until the last one: Prime). A bit like does TI at the back of products.




This would take too much time for HP since there are really a lot of things to list.

[Vtile]

(05-06-2018 01:31 PM)dmmaster Wrote:  

(05-06-2018 12:51 PM)pier4r Wrote:  As every populated social network, quora has a lot of low level discussions but sometimes a gem drops here and there. Unfortunately it had a lot more potential that was wasted due to the new policies and not so regulated user base.

Said that, it is unlikely that quoting one user makes up for an authoritative answer. Once again a crack in the argument.

Maybe. It is a bit like yahoo forums, facebook, or youtube... There should be more moderation on these networks/webpages. Quora may sometime be actually quite helpful. It may give some information about very various things, without being to complex.

The best would be to have a list of features, sort of database of all functions and functionalities of the graphical HP calcs (48sx,...48gx,... until the last one: Prime). A bit like does TI at the back of products.




This would take too much time for HP since there are really a lot of things to list.

I kind of find the TI-83+ listing amusing since it were the calculator got me through my A-levels (CAS monsters are allowed today, lucky bastards), which I recall did contain geometry .. a lot of it.

Then it got me through my UAS degree, which again did have all things not suitable for it. I were too cheap to get the 50g, so I just did lust friends CAS monsters back then. For the 2nd tour in academic world I did get the 50g, wish I had it before, would have saved some nerves in differential and many other courses. Well maybe it is a good thing I did have unsuitable calculator back then it did force me to learn how to do it with "four banger" as I used it.

[dmmaster]

(05-06-2018 08:02 PM)Vtile Wrote:  I kind of find the TI-83+ listing amusing since it were the calculator got me through my A-levels (CAS monsters are allowed today, lucky bastards), which I recall did contain geometry .. a lot of it.

Then it got me through my UAS degree, which again did have all things not suitable for it. I were too cheap to get the 50g, so I just did lust friends CAS monsters back then. For the 2nd tour in academic world I did get the 50g, wish I had it before, would have saved some nerves in differential and many other courses. Well maybe it is a good thing I did have unsuitable calculator back then it did force me to learn how to do it with "four banger" as I used it.

If you need a calc, just take the best, for your great success!
However,...

Today many students over-use CAS and so much power in their hands. Schools and univs. teach students to use Mathematica and how to rely (heavily) on software (at least in Europe). I don't know maybe in Asia, it is different.

Well, time has changed really.

But,... time ago, during all my studies, calculators were forbidden for exams and as well for laboratories. I have been really lucky that this was like that. No computer, no calculators, sometimes just something enough to make a cos, sin and tan and +-*/.
Maybe this is probably the reason that I liked maths so much, and that I became good at it

No calc, the best of the best really.

[Marco Polo]

(05-04-2018 10:59 PM)Cliff Stamp Wrote:  Why is the Prime the inferior choice - what specifically is inferior about it?

I attach here my opinion

I am a chemical engineer working as process engineer in an engineering company.
I currently use a 50g, but tested also the Prime emulator to understand if it fits my needs.

What i require from my calculator?
1) excellent Units of measure handling (conversion, arithmetic operations, etc.)
2) numeric solver capabilities for single equations and systems, even with units of measure
3) capability of using long names for variables and programs
4) capability of using directories
5) pc connectivity or sd card

1 and 2 are non-negotiable features and both missing from Prime.
Furthermore i found the multiple environments of the Prime and the predefined variables names/types quite annoying.
Basically i found the Prime as shipped out-of-the-box, compared to the 48-49-50 series, does not fit my needs for my (repeat: MY) engineering work.

What would be the _perfect_ calculator for me and my job? The 48 series with lot of internal memory, SD card and USB. Graphic capabilities can be stripped away.
Waiting for Swissmicros..... :-)

My two cents....

Regards
Marco Polo

[grsbanks]

(05-07-2018 08:15 AM)Marco Polo Wrote:  What would be the _perfect_ calculator for me and my job? The 48 series with lot of internal memory, SD card and USB. Graphic capabilities can be stripped away.

The 50g is already pretty close to that!

[Marco Polo]

(05-07-2018 08:25 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  The 50g is already pretty close to that!

Agree, but:
- the 50g has keys assignment i don't like too much (i solved using it in USR mode with several keys redefined)
- the menu organization is much worse compared to 48 series
- i don't need CAS (the symbolic capabilities of the original 48 series are ok for me)
- a smaller footprint would be nice
- battery drain is too fast (solved with Eneloop batteries)

I think the DM42 hardware might be a good platform for running a modified version of EMU48 (it's under GPL....i know....i am confident that the license issues will be solved).
To avoid further licensing problems the DM48 might be delivered without the HP48 rom image, to be loaded by the final user (just like in EMU48).
The calculator might be shipped with two different interchangeable keyboard legends in order to be used for S and G series.

Dreaming is free :-)

[dmmaster]

(05-07-2018 09:55 AM)Marco Polo Wrote:  

(05-07-2018 08:25 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  The 50g is already pretty close to that!

Agree, but:
- the 50g has keys assignment i don't like too much (i solved using it in USR mode with several keys redefined)
- the menu organization is much worse compared to 48 series
- i don't need CAS (the symbolic capabilities of the original 48 series are ok for me)
- a smaller footprint would be nice
- battery drain is too fast (solved with Eneloop batteries)

I think the DM42 hardware might be a good platform for running a modified version of EMU48 (it's under GPL....i know....i am confident that the license issues will be solved).
To avoid further licensing problems the DM48 might be delivered without the HP48 rom image, to be loaded by the final user (just like in EMU48).
The calculator might be shipped with two different interchangeable keyboard legends in order to be used for S and G series.

Dreaming is free :-)

One can run x48, it is GNU and fully opensource.
https://qa.debian.org/watch/sf.php/x48.berlios

I agree with Marco Polo, everything !

There are many issues with the HP Prime. Indeed.

Look here a good example of classical issue from Students.
(see pics below)

Students having the NX Inspire CAS are usually much happier. Anyhow most students have the NX Nspire CAS.

[ijabbott]

(05-05-2018 09:50 PM)Vtile Wrote:  Also those () and , belongs in shifted layers, but as Algebraic machine you have no other option than make these sub optimal features.

They are useful for entering complex numbers, especially in RPN entry mode.

[dmmaster]

(05-07-2018 11:52 AM)ijabbott Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 09:50 PM)Vtile Wrote:  Also those () and , belongs in shifted layers, but as Algebraic machine you have no other option than make these sub optimal features.

They are useful for entering complex numbers, especially in RPN entry mode.

Graphics, 2D and 3D are without any single issues. Awesome and especially very fast to plot. Problem with maths (spreadsheet mode), while using variables (in the example A). It is the user fault, but ok.