HP 75 Cat?
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03-07-2017, 09:10 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 09:11 PM by HP-Collection.)
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HP 75 Cat?
Today is the start of the HP 75 software database you can download in future on my website.
I have some CMT EPROMS for the HP 75 I do not know the content. Is there a command to show a sort of catalog like the CAT2 command on the HP-41? |
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03-07-2017, 11:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 11:38 PM by rprosperi.)
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-07-2017 09:10 PM)HP-Collection Wrote: Today is the start of the HP 75 software database you can download in future on my website. There is no built-in command, however the HELP LEX file will produce a list of all keywords in the machine, which includes built-in OS commands, LEX files and ROMs. To find out which keywords there are in a new ROM (or EPROM, or new LEX file), do this: 1. Install the HELP LEX file 2. Type HELP [RTN] 3. Capture the output (print hard copy or capture log using IL-Per or pyILPer witht he PIL-Box). Note: the output is many pages long, even for an empty HP-75. 4. Power-off, Install the new ROM (or EPROM or LEX file), power-on 5. Type HELP [RTN] again 6. Capture this 2nd output 7. Compare the output lists It can be tedious if you are comparing printed copies, but is easy if you are using the PIL-Box as you can use a text editor to compare the files and highlight the differences. Also, the HELP command output describes the argument types for each keyword, so could help you to figure out what they do. See this article about the HELP LEX file (Message #7), with examples and links: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...read=76286 --Bob Prosperi |
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03-07-2017, 11:51 PM
Post: #3
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-07-2017 11:35 PM)rprosperi Wrote: 1. Install the HELP LEX file HELP LEX can be found on the HPCC88 LIF disc image in Joe Horn's O.L.D. project. http://hhuc.us/2014/files/Speakers/08,09...ject/SWAP/ Here's the doc. http://hhuc.us/2014/files/Speakers/08,09...DOC.75.txt |
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03-08-2017, 12:09 AM
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-07-2017 11:51 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: HELP LEX can be found ... Thanks, I was just looking for the links to add. You're quick! --Bob Prosperi |
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03-08-2017, 12:53 AM
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RE: HP 75 Cat? | |||
03-08-2017, 01:45 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-08-2017 02:11 PM by J-F Garnier.)
Post: #6
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-07-2017 11:35 PM)rprosperi Wrote:(03-07-2017 09:10 PM)HP-Collection Wrote: I have some CMT EPROMS for the HP 75 I do not know the content. Is there a command to show a sort of catalog like the CAT2 command on the HP-41?There is no built-in command, however the HELP LEX file will produce a list of all keywords in the machine, which includes built-in OS commands, LEX files and ROMs. This will give information on the LEX files included in the EPROM module, but many custom application modules are made mainly of Basic programs. The built-in CAT command can't access the content of modules, but the PODPMS1C LEX (on the chhu01.dat image) extents the CAT to ROM ports. Matthias, the following may look too complex for what you need (it's not actually), but I will document anyway as it may interest other HP75 owners. Procedure (using the PIL-Box and ILPer): Use the chhu01.dat file as HDRIVE2 image file. Plug the EPROM module to be scanned in the left port of the HP75. On the HP75, first assign the IO identifiers. With ILPer, there will be four, assign them to P1, M1, M2 and I1: >assign io Device # 1='1' (sorry for the smiley, don't know how to disable it but it's ":p1" Device # 2=':m1' Device # 3=':m2' Device # 4=':i1' then declare the display is device (not mandatory, but it makes the process easier to follow on ILPer): >display is ":p1" The following is a capture of the ILPer window, showing the commands applied to one of my CMT EPROM module: Load the PODPMS1C LEX: >copy "podpms1c:m2" to "podpms1c" >cat all Name Type Len Time Date PODPMS1C L 2552 00:36 04/07/85 workfile B 0 00:00 01/01/00 Now, do cat ":rome", ":romf", "romg" to ":romh" to explore the 4 8KB banks of the EPROM moduile. Some maybe empty ("bank not initialized"). Press the down arrow to go through each catalog. >cat ":rome" ERROR: bank not initialized > >cat ":romf" ERROR: bank not initialized > >cat ":romg" Name Type Len Time Date RUNL PL 150 00:53 01/01/00 LCROM1 B 7570 22:20 04/19/86 > >cat ":romh" Name Type Len Time Date LCROM2 B 8102 19:08 04/15/86 > In this particular CMT module, only two banks are used. There is a small LEX providing a support function, and two 8KB Basic programs. It's actually a software to manage video tape rental. Not a big interest. Now, if you want, you can make ROM images of each bank and save them on HDRIVE1: >copy "all:romg" to "rom1g" >copy "all:romh" to "rom1h" >cat all Name Type Len Time Date ROM1H R 8160 00:09 01/01/00 ROM1G R 7761 00:09 01/01/00 PODPMS1C L 2552 00:36 04/07/85 workfile B 0 00:00 01/01/00 > >copy "rom1g" to "rom1g:m1" >copy "rom1h" to "rom1h:m1" J-F |
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03-08-2017, 02:34 PM
Post: #7
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-08-2017 01:45 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote: The built-in CAT command can't access the content of modules, but the PODPMS1C LEX (on the chhu01.dat image) extents the CAT to ROM ports... Thanks for documenting this J-F, it's news to me too. Something new and interesting to check out with the new EMU75 emulator! Once a ROM "image" file is created this way, can that image simpy be copied into a PMS bank and used directly? If so, this is quite similar to the 71B ROMCOPY procedure. Thanks! --Bob Prosperi |
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03-08-2017, 02:42 PM
Post: #8
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
Quote: but I will document anyway as it may interest other HP75 owners. oh yes, this IS very interesting. |
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03-08-2017, 04:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-08-2017 04:38 PM by J-F Garnier.)
Post: #9
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-08-2017 02:34 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Thanks for documenting this J-F, it's news to me too. (03-08-2017 02:42 PM)charger73 Wrote: oh yes, this IS very interesting. A little background: the PODPMS1C LEX is a hacked version of the official PMSCMDS LEX from HP to manage the PMS. It allows to explore the contents of ROM modules, instead of creating new modules with the PMS. It is mentioned in the "swapprop" text file in chhu03.lif archive : "Bob Bradley and John R. Baker deserve a special honorable mention: Bob contributed an incredible 57 files that take us several giant step forwards into the such fields as HP-75 machine language & HP-75/71 FORTH. Among other gems, Bob provides a "lobotomized" version of the "PMSCMDS" file that allows you to copy ANY HP-75 ROM to RAM... Also, PODPMS1C supports up to 96K of Plug-in Module Simulator expansion!" And it's quite new for me too and is the result of recent investigations, as I'm currently have a new interest for the HP75 :-) J-F |
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03-08-2017, 07:19 PM
Post: #10
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-08-2017 01:45 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote: Matthias, the following may look too complex for what you need (it's not actually), but I will document anyway as it may interest other HP75 owners. Hi JF Thanks a lot for the extended description - you know what I need I will try your procedure first on your Emu75 and after success with real machines. Matthias |
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03-08-2017, 08:07 PM
Post: #11
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-08-2017 07:19 PM)HP-Collection Wrote: I will try your procedure first on your Emu75 and after success with real machines. (03-08-2017 02:34 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Something new and interesting to check out with the new EMU75 emulator! This procedure will not work exactly as described on my Emu75, because the port numbering is not managed in the same way. The cat ':rome' ...':romh' will have to be changed for other identifiers between ':roma' and ':romp' , just experiment to find out the right ones ! [hint: for the first plug-in ROM in the emu75.ini file: ':romm', ':rome', ':romi', ':roma' ] Since Emu75 has been mentioned in this thread, here is where my test version can be found: Emu75/DOS. (03-08-2017 02:34 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Once a ROM "image" file is created this way, can that image simpy be copied into a PMS bank and used directly? If so, this is quite similar to the 71B ROMCOPY procedure. Sure, using the regular PMSCMDS LEX, see the PMS manual. J-F |
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03-08-2017, 11:12 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 02:19 AM by rprosperi.)
Post: #12
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-08-2017 08:07 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote: This procedure will not work exactly as described on my Emu75, because the port numbering is not managed in the same way. The cat ':rome' ...':romh' will have to be changed for other identifiers between ':roma' and ':romp' , just experiment to find out the right ones ! For those playing along at home, in addition to extending the CAT command, these are the keywords in the PODPMSC1 LEX file, though since it was hacked from the original PODCMDS LEX file, it's not yet clear if/how most work, what inputs and outputs are, etc.: Code: ========================================= With only the I/O ROM in Port1, results (in EMU75) are: :rome iorom2 L 8168 bytes :romi iorom3 L 8164 :romm iorom1 L 8166 Adding VisiCalc into Port-2 adds: :roma vcassem1 PL 8169 :romf vcassem3 PL 4802 vcbasic3 PB 3289 :romj vcbasic4 PB 8067 :romn vcassem2 PL 8169 Quite a non-intuitive rom-mapping scheme. Seems like there are 4 sets of 4 rom banks, though they appear to be loaded/assigned in some unexpected order. I will check further with a real 75C. Why does EMU75 allocate ROMs in different order than a real 75, does'n that mean you had to re-write a lot of code to do the ROM mgmt? Also, it appears that the PMSCMDS and PODPMS1C LEX files cannot be resident at the same time in EMU75. I installed the latter (with the former already loaded), and upon restart of EMU75, I get an "ERROR" display and the LCD display output is disabled. It took a few moments to realize the LEX files conflict, but upon PURGEing PMSCMDS, EMU75 normal behavior was restored. Is this an EMU75 issue or does the conflict also exist in real h/w (I don't have a PMS yet)? I'd guess that when Bob Bradley (or whoever) hacked the original LEX, perhaps he didn't change the LEX ID. [Update 1] On a real 75D (rom aaaaaa) with a VisiCalc ROM in Port1, results are: :rome vcassem3 PL (same files sizes as above) vcbasic3 BL :romf vcbasic4 PB :romg vcassem1 PL :romh vcassem2 PL So, on a real 75, it appears the ROM banks are be allocated like this: PMS: 4 x 8KB RAM/ROMs, :roma, - :romd Port1: 4 x 8KB ROMs, :rome - :romh Port2: 4 x 8KB ROMs, :romi - :roml Port3L 4 x 8KB ROMs, :romm - :romp Will update this after checking out a 75 in a POD (which plugs-in to Port3). Anyone - Please correct the above if you know more/better Thanks --Bob Prosperi |
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03-09-2017, 07:23 AM
Post: #13
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RE: HP 75 Cat? | |||
03-09-2017, 07:59 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 08:07 AM by J-F Garnier.)
Post: #14
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-08-2017 11:12 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Quite a non-intuitive rom-mapping scheme. Seems like there are 4 sets of 4 rom banks, though they appear to be loaded/assigned in some unexpected order. I will check further with a real 75C. Why does EMU75 allocate ROMs in different order than a real 75, does'n that mean you had to re-write a lot of code to do the ROM mgmt?The ROM-enable slot numbers vs the physical ports is a bit strange (non-consecutive slots), the PODPMS1C LEX translates the roma-romp identifiers to the slots. In my emu75 test version, I used a simpler slot scheme, it doesn't hurt anything, but makes the PODPMS1C translation ineffective. This may change in final emu75 version. Quote:Also, it appears that the PMSCMDS and PODPMS1C LEX files cannot be resident at the same time in EMU75. I installed the latter (with the former already loaded), and upon restart of EMU75, I get an "ERROR" display and the LCD display output is disabled. It took a few moments to realize the LEX files conflict, but upon PURGEing PMSCMDS, EMU75 normal behavior was restored. Is this an EMU75 issue or does the conflict also exist in real h/w (I don't have a PMS yet)? I'd guess that when Bob Bradley (or whoever) hacked the original LEX, perhaps he didn't change the LEX ID.Having 2 LEXs with same LEX numbers will for sure confuse the HP75 OS. Don't do that! Quote:So, on a real 75, it appears the ROM banks are be allocated like this: On the real HP75, the roma-romd identifiers of PODPMS1C select the internal ROM slots (altrom, melrom) This is only true for PODPMS1C, this is the one big part of the patch. In the regular PMSCMDS LEX, the roma-roml select the PMS RAM banks only (so only roma-romb for one real PMS in any port). For more details, you can refer on the HP75 group to the documents: - Faline source code: source code of the PMSCMDS LEX, - ROM_mapping_search Documents the ROM slot addresses, and the search orders for the system (to be read at least 3 times to fully understand it :-), - and of course the PMS manual. J-F |
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03-09-2017, 09:01 AM
Post: #15
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
Does somenone has a OCS Text module? I do not find any infos except the rom image.
Also infos for the "Visiplot", the "Address" and the "Write39" (yea, there is one on ebay) module are welcome. Noone hast the rom image of the "Surveying Pac" and the "Data Communications Pac"? How can I build a .bin of the Forth75 finles? still trying to do a helpfull job for you Matthias |
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03-09-2017, 01:20 PM
Post: #16
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-09-2017 09:01 AM)HP-Collection Wrote: Does somenone has a OCS Text module? I do not find any infos except the rom image. I think that OCS Text is actually "ODS Data Utilities" the OCS I believe came from a typo I made and the text came from the way I named the files when dumping them. On the hp75 group on groups.io M. Garnier says "It was an application-specific ROM, too specific for general use:" I have the ROM and have looked at the keywords but have not spent and time trying to figure out what they do. There is no known documentation for the ROM. Paul. |
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03-09-2017, 01:37 PM
Post: #17
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-09-2017 01:20 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote: I think that OCS Text is actually "ODS Data Utilities" the OCS I believe came from a typo I made and the text came from the way I named the files when dumping them. On the hp75 group on groups.io M. Garnier says "It was an application-specific ROM, too specific for general use:" I have the ROM and have looked at the keywords but have not spent and time trying to figure out what they do. There is no known documentation for the ROM. Can you please verify? The OCS_Text.bin reports CAT "MODEM/TAPE/BOOT/HEADERS". Is this *really* identical to your rom module? |
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03-09-2017, 04:02 PM
Post: #18
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-09-2017 01:37 PM)HP-Collection Wrote:(03-09-2017 01:20 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote: I think that OCS Text is actually "ODS Data Utilities" the OCS I believe came from a typo I made and the text came from the way I named the files when dumping them.Can you please verify? The OCS_Text.bin reports CAT "MODEM/TAPE/BOOT/HEADERS". Is this *really* identical to your rom module? I've a ODS ROM image from the actual module (that I don't have anymore :-), and I checked that it is 100% identical to the OCS image Paul did. >cat ":romm" Name Type Len Time Date LOGLEX PL 4619 10:24 10/09/84 MODEM B 1151 14:19 10/13/84 TAPE B 918 14:19 10/13/84 BOOT B 495 14:19 10/13/84 HEADERS B 914 13:42 10/11/84 J-F |
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03-09-2017, 05:28 PM
Post: #19
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
Hi Jean-Francois
Thanks for checking. So, I do not have to do it anymore..... I'm now looking for the following informations (marked red) - help is always welcome..... HP75C Software list - BETA |
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03-09-2017, 08:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 12:16 AM by Dave Frederickson.)
Post: #20
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RE: HP 75 Cat?
(03-09-2017 05:28 PM)HP-Collection Wrote: Hi Jean-Francois Please add: Diagnostic ROM, 00075-60903 Diagnostic ROM Overlay, 7121-4125 Bar Code Module, 82725A Math ROM, 00075-15015 I/O ROM, 00075-15001 Solution Books: Electronics, 75-13008 Finance, 75-13009 Games I, 75-13006 Games II, 75-13007 I/O Utilities, 75-13013 Math I, 75-13003 Math II, 75-13004 Math III, 75-13005 Real Estate, 75-13010 Statistics, 75-13011 Test Statistics, 75-13012 Media Duplication, 75-13015 Graphics, 75-13016 FWIW, 82726A (WRITE39) is a blank custom ROM. |
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