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Matt Agajanian · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2019 08:15 PM by Matt Agajanian.)

Hi all.

Although the 12C has become the standard of financial calculator excellence and has established itself as the essential financial calculator, how and why didn’t the 38C become the business calc essential?

Also, where does the 17B-II+ fit in in comparison to the 12C?

Namir · 01-22-2019, 08:15 PM

The HP-12C had LCD which consumed less power than the LED in the 38E/C. The batteries in the 12C can run for years!! Also the HP-12C is a sturdier calculator. Also the shape factor. The 12C is slicker and can fit in the pocket.

Matt Agajanian · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2019 08:22 PM by Matt Agajanian.)

That pretty much sums it up (pun intended)! Thanks.

By the way, does the Voyager’s dimensions reflecting the Golden Ratio contribute to the aesthetics appeal have anything to do with the 12C’s popularity?

Gerson W. Barbosa · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2019 11:34 PM by Gerson W. Barbosa.)

The 38E/C lacks depreciation, bonds and calendar functions:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-bin/compare....ON&diff=ON

This comparison is between the 17B and the 12C. The 17BII+ offers more memory and optional RPN mode.

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-bin/compare....ON&diff=ON

Matt Agajanian · 01-23-2019, 01:19 AM

With those enhancements, wouldn’t the 17B-II+ be highly favoured rather than the 12C?

**rprosperi** · (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019 01:27 PM by rprosperi.)

(01-23-2019 01:19 AM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: With those enhancements, wouldn’t the 17B-II+ be highly favoured rather than the 12C?

There are 2 very different looking 17BII+ machines, though they have the same features (and could even function identically, I'm not 100% sure).

The 17BII+ "Gold", released in '03 was made by Kinpo and is obviously gold in color, has a very cheap plastic roundish case, poor keyboard, with a so-so LCD.

The 17BII+ "Silver", released in '06, has a silver metal face, by far the best LCD of any Pioneer machine, is quite attractive with an excellent keyboard.

They both unfortunately have a bug in HP-Solve which leads to incorrect results when doing most complex equations/programs (introduced when the 17BII was ported by Kinpo). For this reason, most folks prefer the 17BII (no plus).

However if you won't be needing HP-Solve (let's face it, most financial machine users don't) the 17BII+ is an excellent all-around financial machine, better than the 12C in almost every way.

Still, the 12C remains quite popular with almost everyone in the mortgage/loan/lending industries, mostly because of it's mythic history/reputation, plus the landscape format makes it seem less techie while simultaneously more sophisticated. A bit like Corinthian Leather - it may not in fact be better, but it is more desirable.

**Gene** · 01-23-2019, 03:50 AM

The original 17B was algebraic only IIRC. That was a big drawback compared to the 12c having 6-7 years head start on it.

Another drawback to the 17B was the lack of key-per-function as on the 12C, but I also suspect the headstart of the 6-7 years the 12c was being sold before the 17B came out that was the big thing.

Business people are very slow to change, so since the 12c worked and my coworker has one, then...

Matt Agajanian · 01-23-2019, 05:12 AM

Thanks rprosperi and Gene. Your analyses and insights are quite informative and helpful. I appreciate that. Now I can see the specifics of how each model has its appeal, importance, and drawbacks.

Massimo Gnerucci · 01-23-2019, 07:45 AM

(01-23-2019 01:39 AM)rprosperi Wrote: The 17BII+ "Gold", released in '93

Bob, I'd add some 10 years to that... ;)

**rprosperi** · 01-23-2019, 01:28 PM

(01-23-2019 07:45 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: Bob, I'd add some 10 years to that...

Fixed. Embarrassing typo, thanks Massimo.

Matt Agajanian · (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019 06:37 PM by Matt Agajanian.)

(01-23-2019 01:39 AM)rprosperi Wrote:
(01-23-2019 01:19 AM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: With those enhancements, wouldn’t the 17B-II+ be highly favoured rather than the 12C?

There are 2 very different looking 17BII+ machines, though they have the same features (and could even function identically, I'm not 100% sure).

The 17BII+ "Gold", released in '03 was made by Kinpo and is obviously gold in color, has a very cheap plastic roundish case, poor keyboard, with a so-so LCD.

The 17BII+ "Silver", released in '06, has a silver metal face, by far the best LCD of any Pioneer machine, is quite attractive with an excellent keyboard.

They both unfortunately have a bug in HP-Solve which leads to incorrect results when doing most complex equations/programs (introduced when the 17BII was ported by Kinpo). For this reason, most folks prefer the 17BII (no plus).

However if you won't be needing HP-Solve (let's face it, most financial machine users don't) the 17BII+ is an excellent all-around financial machine, better than the 12C in almost every way.

Still, the 12C remains quite popular with almost everyone in the mortgage/loan/lending industries, mostly because of it's mythic history/reputation, plus the landscape format makes it seem less techie while simultaneously more sophisticated. A bit like Corinthian Leather - it may not in fact be better, but it is more desirable.

Corinthian Leather, you say. Khan (of course, Ricardo Montalban) and Chrysler would be proud!

zeno333 · 01-23-2019, 10:51 PM

(01-23-2019 01:39 AM)rprosperi Wrote:
(01-23-2019 01:19 AM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: With those enhancements, wouldn’t the 17B-II+ be highly favoured rather than the 12C?

There are 2 very different looking 17BII+ machines, though they have the same features (and could even function identically, I'm not 100% sure).

The 17BII+ "Gold", released in '03 was made by Kinpo and is obviously gold in color, has a very cheap plastic roundish case, poor keyboard, with a so-so LCD.

The 17BII+ "Silver", released in '06, has a silver metal face, by far the best LCD of any Pioneer machine, is quite attractive with an excellent keyboard.

They both unfortunately have a bug in HP-Solve which leads to incorrect results when doing most complex equations/programs (introduced when the 17BII was ported by Kinpo). For this reason, most folks prefer the 17BII (no plus).

However if you won't be needing HP-Solve (let's face it, most financial machine users don't) the 17BII+ is an excellent all-around financial machine, better than the 12C in almost every way.

Still, the 12C remains quite popular with almost everyone in the mortgage/loan/lending industries, mostly because of it's mythic history/reputation, plus the landscape format makes it seem less techie while simultaneously more sophisticated. A bit like Corinthian Leather - it may not in fact be better, but it is more desirable.

Too bad we can not go back to the early 70s when HP fixed bugs in calculators...

bshoring · 01-23-2019, 11:12 PM

(01-22-2019 08:11 PM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: Hi all.

Although the 12C has become the standard of financial calculator excellence and has established itself as the essential financial calculator, how and why didn’t the 38C become the business calc essential?

Also, where does the 17B-II+ fit in in comparison to the 12C?

Back to the HP-38C, I think for a few years it was the standard or the ultimate in Financial calculators. Until the Spice series and the HP-92 came out, HP kept trying new formats with financials. They got it right with the 38C and also the HP-92 which allows full interchangeability among the financial functions. No previous calc had that flexibility. The way the functions work in the 38C is exactly the way they have worked in the 12C all these decades. Of course the 12C added depreciation and bonds. On the 38C they have to be programmed in. I personally prefer the vertical format of the 38C over the 12C, especially for work when I am holding the device in my hand. HP went back to a vertical format after the Voyagers.

Back in 1982 after the HP-12C had been out for 6 months, a tech store owner in San Francisco's Financial District told me that the HP-38C was still their best selling calculator.

Namir well lays out the ways in which the 12C is a superior machine. To that I can add that it seems to have the "cool factor." HP did come up with a winner with the 12C. However HP continued manufacturing the HP-38C for nearly 2 years after the 12C came out, and they continued to sell well, albeit at reduced prices.

Despite the obvious superiority of the HP-12C, the HP-38C is still my favorite. I'm on my 3rd.

Bob

Geoff Quickfall · 01-24-2019, 12:24 AM

Adding to the above, there was/is a prestige value when using the hp12c. The gold trim and facia plate adds to this.

Also, many commerce and Econ courses demanded the hp12 as a standard when it came to formatting exams at university in the eighties and nineties. Similar to the 41C series in engineering in the early 80s.

Read an anecdote that in India, in commerce, you were not taken seriously if you did not have a 12c on your desk, this was taken to the extreme when your working calc was other then the 12c. Still, the 12c had to be the ‘visible’ calculator!

Geoff