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PeterP · 12-06-2020, 02:36 PM

I have just been introduced (thank you Juergen) to the amazing NutStudio tools from Hakan - what an impressive tool set, I am blown away!

Being used to the SDK I really like the display of all the register contents, Hex/Dec mode of the CPU, RAM registers, etc as I single-step through the code.

I was wondering if anyone on the Mac has set up their Visual Studio or EMAC with a similar ‘ identical display of registers etc content?

Any preference / advantage to setting it up with Visual Studio or EMAC if one is familiar with neither? (IE which one is easier to learn with better features)

The primary use case for me would be to explore MCODE modules and write MCODE.

One last question - It would be convenient if one could write comments into the source code of an MCODE file while single stepping through it. It seems that one can send breakpoints via the mouse. But I was wondering if there is a way to say double click and then be able to ad comments to the source code which stay saved in the filed. This would immensely simplify exploring and commenting MCODE.

One last last question (related to the above) - do we have a text version of the VASM files which could be augmented with additional comments for example, especially for the card reader, wand, printer.

I’d like to finish with thanking Hakan for making these tools and sharing them, they are amazing! (Especially as they work on the Mac!)

Massimo Gnerucci · 12-06-2020, 03:18 PM

(12-06-2020 02:36 PM)PeterP Wrote: I’d like to finish with thanking Hakan for making these tools and sharing them, they are amazing! (Especially as they work on the Mac!)

I also thank Hakan for all of his work and dedication.
But not for leaving out 90% of total computers out there... :'(

**rprosperi** · 12-06-2020, 04:06 PM

(12-06-2020 02:36 PM)PeterP Wrote: One last last question (related to the above) - do we have a text version of the VASM files which could be augmented with additional comments for example, especially for the card reader, wand, printer.

There are PDF versions of the VASM, which Jackie Woldering typed-in by hand (!!!!) available on TOS. You can easily just copy / paste to a text editor, though I have not tried, so not sure if the alignment is preserved. Still, it beats notes written on the printed page...

mfleming · 12-06-2020, 04:22 PM

(12-06-2020 03:18 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: I also thank Hakan for all of his work and dedication.
But not for leaving out 90% of total computers out there... :'(

Although not as convenient as a native application you can use Oracle's VM to manage a Linux host for NutStudio. If you have Windows 10, then use Microsoft Subsystem for Linux. WSL integrates somewhat more smoothly into Windows itself.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows...tall-win10

Massimo Gnerucci · 12-06-2020, 04:33 PM

(12-06-2020 04:22 PM)mfleming Wrote:
(12-06-2020 03:18 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: I also thank Hakan for all of his work and dedication.
But not for leaving out 90% of total computers out there... :'(

Although not as convenient as a native application you can use Oracle's VM to manage a Linux host for NutStudio. If you have Windows 10, then use Microsoft Subsystem for Linux. WSL integrates somewhat more smoothly into Windows itself.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows...tall-win10

I know, I know, and routinely use both solutions (plus VMware). But...

mfleming · 12-07-2020, 12:14 AM

(12-06-2020 04:33 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: I know, I know, and routinely use both solutions (plus VMware). But...

My understanding is that the lack of Windows support is due to a lack of support for the source language that NutStudio is written in (Haskell). We're stuck with a workaround for now Sad

Massimo Gnerucci · 12-07-2020, 01:02 AM

(12-07-2020 12:14 AM)mfleming Wrote:
(12-06-2020 04:33 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: I know, I know, and routinely use both solutions (plus VMware). But...

My understanding is that the lack of Windows support is due to a lack of support for the source language that NutStudio is written in (Haskell). We're stuck with a workaround for now

Really?

Not that I have to complain too much, but this missing support is unfortunate, since pre-built binaries for the 3 platforms were available at least up until version 2.1.1.

Oh well, thanks anyway Hakan!

hth · 12-07-2020, 02:22 AM

(12-06-2020 02:36 PM)PeterP Wrote: [...]

I was wondering if anyone on the Mac has set up their Visual Studio or EMAC with a similar ‘ identical display of registers etc content?
Any preference / advantage to setting it up with Visual Studio or EMAC if one is familiar with neither? (IE which one is easier to learn with better features)

If you are not familiar with Emacs I suggest you try VS Code as Emacs is mainly for people that are already living inside Emacs. Eclipse may also be a possibility. I did some experiments with Eclipse years ago and got it running. It requires a plug-in that I have not made available yet and I do not know the current status. If you are interested in playing with it I can perhaps take a look at it.

Some years back I used Emacs as the debugger front end, using GDB-MI mode. With that I could see registers while stepping in the debugger, having the cursor indicating where I was in the source code buffer.

I have since switched to VS Code for my own debugging. There are both pros and cons compared to Emacs. The main advantage with VS Code is that it works better and was just more solid than the Emacs GDB-MI when I tried it last time 1-2 years ago. The downside with VS Code is that it does not offer assembly level debugging with register display. You have to type "-exec info registers" or "-exec i r" for short in the command console. At least you can do arrow up for command history in it, so it is a half-decent work around. I still edit in Emacs and only use VS Code as a separate debugger. That is because I am so used working in Emacs after 30+ years.

I have my projects set up so I can also build a single combined executable. That way I build Boost, OS4, Ladybug and the whole mainframe into a single ELF/DWARF binary and the debugger can load this with debug information.This way I can step from my Boost code into OS4 and even further into the mainframe. Stepping in the actual code source, seeing all comments and the code as it looks in the editor. I find it super helpful and it makes it easy to debug interactions between the projects at source level.

Quote:One last question - It would be convenient if one could write comments into the source code of an MCODE file while single stepping through it. It seems that one can send breakpoints via the mouse. But I was wondering if there is a way to say double click and then be able to ad comments to the source code which stay saved in the filed. This would immensely simplify exploring and commenting MCODE.

There is no support for adding comments to source code to disassembly that you are stepping around in. What you could do is create a source project from disassembler output, build that project to recreate the module. Then you can just load it into one of the debugger front ends and type comments on the line you are at (this is possible with both VS Code and Emacs at least). While it requires some setup, you have the benefit that you have the thing you study in buildable source form and can gradually build up knowledge about it. Later, you can even make real changes to it and rebuild it.

Quote:One last last question (related to the above) - do we have a text version of the VASM files which could be augmented with additional comments for example, especially for the card reader, wand, printer.

There are buildable source code for the mainframe that I recreated. The extras added in 41CX are not fully investigated. Robert Meyer did work on annotating the card reader and made lots of interesting findings, but it is incomplete. The Wand has not been investigated as far as I know. Printer source listing are around and so are the HP-IL, but at least I have not put them together into buildable source yet.

One problem working on the VASM listings is the copyright, they are not open source.

Reference
https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools/issues/206

hth · 12-07-2020, 02:25 AM

(12-07-2020 01:02 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:
(12-07-2020 12:14 AM)mfleming Wrote: My understanding is that the lack of Windows support is due to a lack of support for the source language that NutStudio is written in (Haskell). We're stuck with a workaround for now

Really?

Not that I have to complain too much, but this missing support is unfortunate, since pre-built binaries for the 3 platforms were available at least up until version 2.1.1.

Oh well, thanks anyway Hakan!

GHC/Haskell that I use is well supported on Windows. The problem is money. I need to buy Windows in order to build NutStudio and I cannot justify spending the money on something I would only use for this purpose.

However, there is one minor glimpse of hope in that I have a rather weak machine with a non-registered but legal copy of Windows. It was never activated in time (there was a time limit in doing so for that machine). I plan to set up a virtual Windows 10 on my main Linux box (Windows 10 iso can apparently be downloaded free of charge). Then I will see if I can coax Microsoft into allowing me to activate and use that license for the virtual machine.

Massimo Gnerucci · 12-07-2020, 10:17 AM

(12-07-2020 02:25 AM)hth Wrote:
(12-07-2020 01:02 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: Really?

Not that I have to complain too much, but this missing support is unfortunate, since pre-built binaries for the 3 platforms were available at least up until version 2.1.1.

Oh well, thanks anyway Hakan!

GHC/Haskell that I use is well supported on Windows. The problem is money. I need to buy Windows in order to build NutStudio and I cannot justify spending the money on something I would only use for this purpose.

However, there is one minor glimpse of hope in that I have a rather weak machine with a non-registered but legal copy of Windows. It was never activated in time (there was a time limit in doing so for that machine). I plan to set up a virtual Windows 10 on my main Linux box (Windows 10 iso can apparently be downloaded free of charge). Then I will see if I can coax Microsoft into allowing me to activate and use that license for the virtual machine.

OK, understood now.
As I wrote, nobody can complain for a missing free tool... :)
Thanks again for all your persistent work on the 41.

Jurgen Keller · 12-11-2020, 05:28 PM

(12-06-2020 03:18 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:
(12-06-2020 02:36 PM)PeterP Wrote: I’d like to finish with thanking Hakan for making these tools and sharing them, they are amazing! (Especially as they work on the Mac!)
But not for leaving out 90% of total computers out there... :'(

90%? Really? ;-)

Jurgen Keller · 12-11-2020, 05:33 PM

(12-06-2020 02:36 PM)PeterP Wrote: I have just been introduced (thank you Juergen) to the amazing NutStudio tools from Hakan - what an impressive tool set, I am blown away!

Being used to the SDK I really like the display of all the register contents, Hex/Dec mode of the CPU, RAM registers, etc as I single-step through the code.

...

You're welcome! Unfortunately, I didn't found time yet to have a closer look into NutStudio. But from what I've seen up to now it's really impressive! I was also used to the SDK which somehow worked but was not very comfortable. I hope I'll find some time over the Christmas days to learn more about NutStudio :-)

Massimo Gnerucci · (This post was last modified: 12-11-2020 07:10 PM by Massimo Gnerucci.)

(12-11-2020 05:28 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote:
(12-06-2020 03:18 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: But not for leaving out 90% of total computers out there... :'(

90%? Really? ;-)

Jurgen, can't see a thing there without registering.
But I'd say a sound yes, really!

:)

hth · 12-11-2020, 08:12 PM

I talked to Microsoft and after about 6 hours (no kidding) of work over two days, their support managed to get my virtual Windows to accept the license I already owned. I now have a genuine Windows!

That was just the first stumble block. Now I am trying to get some kind of build environment going and it is a slow and frustrating experience. I make slow progress so far and I alternate with other things that I need to do (there are several).

hth · 12-11-2020, 08:13 PM

(12-11-2020 05:33 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: I hope I'll find some time over the Christmas days to learn more about NutStudio :-)

Feel free to give me feedback, so I know what to focus on and improve.

hth · 12-11-2020, 08:18 PM

(12-11-2020 06:49 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:
(12-11-2020 05:28 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: 90%? Really? ;-)

Jurgen, can't see a thing there without registering.
But I'd say a sound yes, really!

I could not see it either and I did not want to register.

The problem with typical OS market share numbers is that they show a grand total of all users, they do not distinguish on different categories.

To take one extreme example, five years ago I visitied a Haskell hackaton in Zurich. Of the about 60 participants there was one (!) using Windows. About 80% used macOS, the rest Linux. Haskell is supported well on all these three platforms, so why is everyone using Mac and basically no one is using Windows?

When I had an early NutStudio download (when Windows was supported), the numbers indicated 50-60% Windows.

The more you go with (open source) developers the more this 90% tilts towards 50% and even less, except for game production where Windows is very dominant.

For causal home users (and gamers) as well as standard office duty, Windows is very dominant and I think these are the vast majority of people using stationary computers.

These are purely my observations. They may be wrong, but my gut feeling about being around various communities is that Windows is not as dominant as it once was, especially not among developers and tinkerers.

Massimo Gnerucci · 12-11-2020, 08:51 PM

(12-11-2020 08:18 PM)hth Wrote:
(12-11-2020 06:49 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: Jurgen, can't see a thing there without registering.
But I'd say a sound yes, really!

:)

I could not see it either and I did not want to register.

The problem with typical OS market share numbers is that they show a grand total of all users, they do not distinguish on different categories.

To take one extreme example, five years ago I visitied a Haskell hackaton in Zurich. Of the about 60 participants there was one (!) using Windows. About 80% used macOS, the rest Linux. Haskell is supported well on all these three platforms, so why is everyone using Mac and basically no one is using Windows?

When I had an early NutStudio download (when Windows was supported), the numbers indicated 50-60% Windows.

The more you go with (open source) developers the more this 90% tilts towards 50% and even less, except for game production where Windows is very dominant.

For causal home users (and gamers) as well as standard office duty, Windows is very dominant and I think these are the vast majority of people using stationary computers.

These are purely my observations. They may be wrong, but my gut feeling about being around various communities is that Windows is not as dominant as it once was, especially not among developers and tinkerers.

Where I work (500+ people, 80% technical), everything is developed on Windows and linux. Nothing for Macs.

It takes all sorts to make a world...

Thank you very much for considering to develop your masterpiece also on the remaining platform! No hurries, of course.

:)

PeterP · 12-11-2020, 09:43 PM

(12-11-2020 06:49 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:
(12-11-2020 05:28 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: 90%? Really? ;-)

Jurgen, can't see a thing there without registering.
But I'd say a sound yes, really!

here it says 77%

Massimo Gnerucci · 12-12-2020, 12:19 AM

(12-11-2020 09:43 PM)PeterP Wrote:
(12-11-2020 06:49 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: Jurgen, can't see a thing there without registering.
But I'd say a sound yes, really!

here it says 77%

Dunno whence it comes from, but since it talks about: "Linus, as the third most popular desktop OS" I won't take it for granted...

Be it 75-80-90% as you like: there's no contest anyway.

Jurgen Keller · 12-12-2020, 06:21 AM

(12-11-2020 06:49 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:
(12-11-2020 05:28 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: 90%? Really? ;-)

Jurgen, can't see a thing there without registering.
But I'd say a sound yes, really!

Sorry, I was not aware of this registration hurdle. Yesterday, I could see the stats, today I also get the registration popup. Arghhh!

The Windows market share was 77% if I remember correctly. However, I learned that there are many different numbers out there.

Anyway, I fully understand your situation because as a Mac user (at home), I'm very often in the same situation, e.g., with all the Clonix software. In the office we also use Windows PC's. However, I know that those teams in our company developing for the Cloud are using Macs. As more and more applications move to the Cloud the OS may get less important in the future.