[split] TI-84 new Python announced -- Was --- What would you like to see in a future HP Prime II? (HP Prime², HP Prime 2

[turgu1]

A new version of the TI-84 with Python has been announced:

https://education.ti.com/en/products/cal...-ce-python

It could be interesting to compare their implementation with the one in the current beta.

Guy

(05-04-2021 09:27 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  I can only speak for education here in the UK, although anecdotally I understand things to be much the same in most European countries. The true value of Python on calculators is taken holistically across STEM knowledge domains (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics). It's the reason that I've been posting about the BBC micro:bit and its possibilities in tandem with the HP Prime.

For those of a mathematical persuasion, Python's value on a calculator (talking about typical student age groups here) is that students can extend the functionality of their calculator using a programming language that's already being taught in the rest of their curriculum. The barrier of having to learn a new scripting/programming language is removed.

Much as I tend to use XCAS's native scripting when exploring KhiCAS on the Nspire, I can see myself using Python on the Prime. It's also great that Bernard has provided many of the familiar functions from Numpy and SciPy on the Prime as this will make it easier to adapt desktop scripts. Those functions often duplicate existing XCAS functions, and under the hood, they will probably be aliases to those existing XCAS functions; but yet again, the real benefit is the removal of barriers for those looking to create bespoke solutions on their calculator.

[Liam Hays]

Interesting...the TI-84 Plus CE is based on the eZ80 processor, a relatively recent extension of the Z80. How do they run MicroPython on that? Even C is only possible through SDCC (which is an awesome project, by the way), according to Wikipedia. It just doesn't seem like that chip would be powerful enough to handle something so complicated.

P.S. I renamed the title of the thread, because the forum said that the title was too long and refused to allow me to reply.

[Dave Britten]

This model has been out in parts of Europe for a while, hasn't it? TI's current "solution" is a little Python module (i.e. SBC running Micro Python) that you plug into the 84's USB port, whereas this model integrates some form of coprocessor - likely ARM - to do the Python work without any external accessories.

[Liam Hays]

Dave Britten Wrote:This model has been out in parts of Europe for a while, hasn't it? TI's current "solution" is a little Python module (i.e. SBC running Micro Python) that you plug into the 84's USB port, whereas this model integrates some form of coprocessor - likely ARM - to do the Python work without any external accessories.

That's pretty neat, actually. Is the module expensive? It shouldn't be if it's just a processor on a stick, so to speak, but given TI's markup on their other products...

But if they're integrating second processor, I have to wonder why. It seems like it would be easier and cheaper to have the entire OS run on the ARM chip, and take advantage of the processing power present there, like they already do on the n-spire series.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(05-11-2021 06:42 PM)Liam Hays Wrote:  That's pretty neat, actually. Is the module expensive? It shouldn't be if it's just a processor on a stick, so to speak, but given TI's markup on their other products...

It is actually a small clear plastic box that connects to the calculator with a cable. The price is around 25 Euros. I think I have seen it on Amazon.

Regards
Max

[Dave Britten]

(05-11-2021 06:42 PM)Liam Hays Wrote:  

Dave Britten Wrote:This model has been out in parts of Europe for a while, hasn't it? TI's current "solution" is a little Python module (i.e. SBC running Micro Python) that you plug into the 84's USB port, whereas this model integrates some form of coprocessor - likely ARM - to do the Python work without any external accessories.

That's pretty neat, actually. Is the module expensive? It shouldn't be if it's just a processor on a stick, so to speak, but given TI's markup on their other products...

But if they're integrating second processor, I have to wonder why. It seems like it would be easier and cheaper to have the entire OS run on the ARM chip, and take advantage of the processing power present there, like they already do on the n-spire series.

Silicon is cheaper than programmers, so rewriting the whole firmware to run on ARM is probably a lot more expensive than just keeping the Z80 and adding a cheap ARM coprocessor. Not to mention the opportunity cost of undertaking such a major development project. Maybe some day... I bet if they do it, it'll be an arrangement like the HP 50G where the legacy CPU is emulated on an ARM.

[Eddie W. Shore]

(05-11-2021 04:34 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  This model has been out in parts of Europe for a while, hasn't it? TI's current "solution" is a little Python module (i.e. SBC running Micro Python) that you plug into the 84's USB port, whereas this model integrates some form of coprocessor - likely ARM - to do the Python work without any external accessories.

I forgot about the required extension. But I think by the time the TI-83 Premium Python Edition came out, TI integrated everything into the calculator without the need for an external processor. I expect the latter for the TI-84 Plus CE Python Edition (USA).

[Csaba Tizedes]

It was discussed on MoHPC earlier, so I do not understand this discussion, because the TI-83 Premium CE Python Edition is released months before... TI France
That little ARM soapbox is an outdated stuff, maybe available on ebay, all the Python is packed inside the TI-83/84 already.

That is another question, these stuffs aren't available for the US market.

Csaba

[Liam Hays]

Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:It is actually a small clear plastic box that connects to the calculator with a cable. The price is around 25 Euros. I think I have seen it on Amazon.

Nice. I looked it up and it looks pretty neat. This forum has a picture, and it has an ATSAMD21 ARM processor, the same chip used in a lot of MicroPython development boards. Arguably the oddest part about the Python box is that, as that poster says, TI didn't go with MicroPython as Casio (and now HP) have done, but built theirs off of Adafruit's CircuitPython. Why?

Dave Britten Wrote:Silicon is cheaper than programmers, so rewriting the whole firmware to run on ARM is probably a lot more expensive than just keeping the Z80 and adding a cheap ARM coprocessor.

Plus, keeping one calc on an old architecture means that there's an obvious difference between that series (TI-84 and friends) and the n-spires and CAS machines. Who knows if that's good for sales, but it clearly defines the low end and the high end.

[Adriweb]

Indeed, since 2019, in France the TI-83 Premium CE Edition Python has everything built-in (ARM co-processor), no need of the usb module. Same in the rest of Europe with the TI-84 Plus CE-T Python Edition.
We assume it will be the same hardware for that new TI-84 Plus CE Python. We'll see in about a month

(05-13-2021 08:59 PM)Liam Hays Wrote:  Arguably the oddest part about the Python box is that, as that poster says, TI didn't go with MicroPython as Casio (and now HP) have done, but built theirs off of Adafruit's CircuitPython. Why?

CircuitPython is a fork of MicroPython however, for even tinier boards.

(05-11-2021 02:33 PM)Liam Hays Wrote:  Even C is only possible through SDCC (which is an awesome project, by the way), according to Wikipedia.

Minor topic hijack about this: the CE enthusiasts community has created a toolchain that is now powered by LLVM (!) thanks to Jacobly's (e)Z80 backend. So C and C++ are working just fine on the CE - you'll just have to work with the limitations of the platform of course. More info in the release notes of the version of the toolchain that introduced the LLVM backend.

[Dave Britten]

I spotted the new TI-84 CE with Python at Meijer this evening, so they're out in the wild now.

[Dave Britten]

I just picked one of these up at Target. (On sale for $99 until 7/24!)

WOW, this is a lot faster than the older model. Informal measurements suggest it's at least twice as fast.

I'm wondering if rather than adding an ARM coprocessor just for Python if they didn't just replace the Z80 entirely, and either port the firmware to ARM (kinda doubt it), or emulate the Z80 on ARM to run the firmware (more plausible). Has anybody peeked at the guts to see what the CPU situation is? I'm definitely liking the very noticeable speed boost!

[Ren]

(07-21-2021 06:18 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  I'm definitely liking the very noticeable speed boost!

"I once put instant coffee in a microwave oven, and almost went back in time."
-Steven Wright

B^)

[critor]

(07-21-2021 06:18 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  I'm wondering if rather than adding an ARM coprocessor just for Python if they didn't just replace the Z80 entirely, and either port the firmware to ARM (kinda doubt it), or emulate the Z80 on ARM to run the firmware (more plausible). Has anybody peeked at the guts to see what the CPU situation is? I'm definitely liking the very noticeable speed boost!

Same eZ80 CPU @48MHz for non-Python stuff, but new faster serial Flash chip.
So everything within the OS is faster.

[Dave Britten]

(07-24-2021 05:44 PM)critor Wrote:  

(07-21-2021 06:18 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  I'm wondering if rather than adding an ARM coprocessor just for Python if they didn't just replace the Z80 entirely, and either port the firmware to ARM (kinda doubt it), or emulate the Z80 on ARM to run the firmware (more plausible). Has anybody peeked at the guts to see what the CPU situation is? I'm definitely liking the very noticeable speed boost!

Same eZ80 CPU @48MHz for non-Python stuff, but new faster serial Flash chip.
So everything within the OS is faster.

Ahh, that would explain it. I remember reading something about the previous model using components that were more suitable for an ARM CPU that could handle wait states more gracefully. In any case, it's a LOT faster than the one I got a few years ago, which is a pleasant surprise.

[tcab]

The TI-84 Plus CE Python calculator even has a manual for the Python side of things https://education.ti.com/html/webhelp/EG...index.html

I hope HP get around to a manual for the Prime Python app one day, too.

[Eddie W. Shore]

(08-11-2021 09:47 PM)tcab Wrote:  The TI-84 Plus CE Python calculator even has a manual for the Python side of things https://education.ti.com/html/webhelp/EG...index.html

I hope HP get around to a manual for the Prime Python app one day, too.

Agree. Thankfully we have the Help key for the Prime, something is better than nothing.