It seems nobody likes the 97

[John Garza (3665)]

Although I find the emulators interesting and I do dabble in the 21st Century upgrades (like the Teenix CPU cards, Panamatik, etc.) I find them only a side interest. The whole point is to repair and preserve the actual old machines. Without that, you're really missing the point.

I encountered this decades ago when I was into S-100 70's era computers (Altair, IMSAI, etc.). I found it easy to just swap in a newer, more powerful card. And to get the machine back to original specs required only swapping the card out again with the original. One of the reasons I like the Teenix cards - they are less invasive than the Panamatik upgrades.

Let's face it, with modern tech and enough resources, something could be built that far outstrips anything sold to date (even the Prime). It's not done because of the market and perceived risk. Emulators are here because they are tied to the ancient architectures. If you're not interested in preserving the past, make new designs not tied to the past expect for leaning from past mistakes. In short, choose a path. A little clarity always helps!

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(05-28-2023 05:56 PM)John Garza (3665) Wrote:  If you're not interested in preserving the past, make new designs not tied to the past expect for leaning from past mistakes.

I am mostly with you regaring this statement. With one exception: If you have a non-working calculator for which no spare parts can be found (like the Woodstock or Spice series calculators) you have two options: Either throw it away or put a Panamatik or Teenix board inside and have a working calculator again. Of these options I prefer the second one! But as you write: Simulators and emulators and lookalikes (like the Swiss Micros series) are of very little interest to me. As is the printer of my HP-97. I rather have a non-printing but otherwise working 97 than one that I destroy while trying to fix the printer which I never will use anyway.

Regards
Max

[John Garza (3665)]

(05-28-2023 06:22 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Hello!

I am mostly with you regarding this statement. With one exception: If you have a non-working calculator for which no spare parts can be found (like the Woodstock or Spice series calculators) you have two options: Either throw it away or put a Panamatik or Teenix board inside and have a working calculator again. Of these options I prefer the second one!

Yes, absolutely! Or reuse the exterior case, keys, display, etc. if the cosmetics are good and you have another that looks bad but works well.

As for the 97 printer, it can be removed completely from the unit for servicing. Little risk of damaging anything else. It's easier to access the printer than the card reader. Once the case is off, 3 screws with rubber grommets hold the printer assembly in place. No need to remove the black plastic internal frame like you have to do to access the card reader.

-J

[johnb]

(05-24-2023 12:43 PM)KeithB Wrote:  I vaguely remember doing floating point operations in IBM 370 assembler at CalTech when I was in High School back in the seventies.

I was going to make a wisecrack about that having permanently warped you.

Then I remembered I had done the same thing in CDC Cyber 74 assembler at Ga. Tech when I was in high school back in the seventies.

The Cyber was one of the last designs Seymour Cray did for CDC before he left to found Cray Research. It was definitely a number cruncher but it had a very strange layout: 60-bit word and no concept of a "byte" anywhere in sight. And very strange (but math-efficient) register layout. Oh, and it used a 6-bit subset of ASCII, so if you did string manipulations in Fortran IV or assembler, you had 10 characters per word but no lowercase.

So, apologies in advance, I'm probably more warped than you!



(Hmm. Should I mention I've also done APL?)

[John Garza (3665)]

I've seen some complain about the larger size of the Topcats. They are not that large - especially considering the HP desk calculator line (9100 onwards), which are huge in comparison.

Maybe desks have shrunk in the 21st century?

So where does that leave the HP desk calculators? Are they all relegated to storage? If so, why do their prices remain high? Certainly not as an investment - better returns are available elsewhere in more commonly known items. Is it some sort of psychological 'collector drive' where people hoard these things like squirrels collecting nuts for winter? As for me, I like to take them out and play with them. I derive no value in having machines in storage - other than backups. I get no thrill from 'bragging rights' about having such and such machine in storage.

The psychology of collecting... might be worth some research.

-j

[KeithB]

"(Hmm. Should I mention I've also done APL?) "
We did APL, too!
From "The Devil's DP Dictionary":
APL:
A language, devised by K. Iverson, so compacted that the source code can be freely disseminated without revealing the programmers intention or jeopardizing proprietary rights.

There are three things a man must do
before his life is done;
Write two lines in APL,
and make the buggers run.

[Jake Schwartz]

(06-08-2023 12:43 PM)John Garza (3665) Wrote:  I've seen some complain about the larger size of the Topcats. They are not that large - especially considering the HP desk calculator line (9100 onwards), which are huge in comparison.

Maybe desks have shrunk in the 21st century?
-j

Yeah, I'm not sure how recently the story of the large size of the 9100 was retold around here, but here it goes again: Originally, Bill Hewlett told his lab team that he wanted a scientific calculator which would fit in his desk drawer. After they had the first unit built, they went to show it to Bill, but he was away. They went to see how it would fit in his desk drawer and discovered that it was slightly too large. I believe it was Dave Cochran who told us that their solution was to get a carpenter at HP to slightly modify Bill's desk so it would fit. When Bill returned, he apparently was happy with the 9100 and was not aware how they made it fit :-)
Jake

[John Garza (3665)]

Love it! Typical HP office shenanigans. Those engineers are always up to something!

-J

[rprosperi]

(06-08-2023 12:43 PM)John Garza (3665) Wrote:  I've seen some complain about the larger size of the Topcats. They are not that large - especially considering the HP desk calculator line (9100 onwards), which are huge in comparison.

Maybe desks have shrunk in the 21st century?

So where does that leave the HP desk calculators? Are they all relegated to storage? If so, why do their prices remain high? Certainly not as an investment - better returns are available elsewhere in more commonly known items. Is it some sort of psychological 'collector drive' where people hoard these things like squirrels collecting nuts for winter? As for me, I like to take them out and play with them. I derive no value in having machines in storage - other than backups. I get no thrill from 'bragging rights' about having such and such machine in storage.

The psychology of collecting... might be worth some research.

-j

I think one strong factor is that 'back in the day' many (most?) of us old farts that were around the HP-97 was being promoted and sold, we all longed to own one, but it was just too expensive for most people. Plenty bought a 67 instead, but still pined for the large LED display, very comfortable well laid-out keyboard and of course the printer.

Many then went on the 41 and then 48's, etc. etc. But in truth the latent desire for the king of early HP machines never went away fully, and so we're getting them now that they're "onlY" $300-400.

One sits near me now, and though I only use it rarely, I do appreciate it just being there ready to go.

Indeed, the psychology of collecting would be an interesting topic, but like the psychology of nearly everything, most readers conclude "yes, that explains most people, but not me".

[John Garza (3665)]

Funny, what forces our buying decisions.

I considered myself lucky to have an HP-67 in college. I bought it used from a fellow PPC member. Came with a Math Pac and a couple of mods - magnetic reed switches for card write protect defeat, and Block 3 access for Word/Phrase/Graphics. Very eye-opening stuff for a college freshman. Of course, I still wanted a 97, but even if I could have afforded it, the tiny student desks and concern over security would have kept me away. Being the nerd that I was, I had the 67 in it's case hanging from my belt, never any chance of it going out of my reach. I just couldn't see myself lugging a 97 around in my backpack.

As for a 'regular computer' I wanted a Kaypro, but my mom complained the metal case would scratch her wood tables. So I got an Osborne with a plastic case and tiny 5 inch screen. That would be a problem now, but I had exquisite eyesight back then. In fact, I could detect the crescent phase of Venus without a telescope.

-J

[Siegfried]

(06-08-2023 12:43 PM)John Garza (3665) Wrote:  Maybe desks have shrunk in the 21st century?

So where does that leave the HP desk calculators? Are they all relegated to storage? If so, why do their prices remain high? Certainly not as an investment - better returns are available elsewhere in more commonly known items. Is it some sort of psychological 'collector drive' where people hoard these things like squirrels collecting nuts for winter? As for me, I like to take them out and play with them. I derive no value in having machines in storage - other than backups. I get no thrill from 'bragging rights' about having such and such machine in storage.

The psychology of collecting... might be worth some research.

-j

When the Topcats were designed, most users' desks did not have a computer on them, so they had more space.

I gathered three partly working and non-working HP97s with the hope to find time to get one working unit and pass the remainder on (and one of them was too good a deal to pass). I enjoy anticipating the day I'll have enough time to start tinkering with them ;-)

There must be various modes of collecting, some are after "one of each" while others just enjoy gathering stuff without much of a system (would be interesting if that correlates with BMI, I have heard the theory that you can't lose weight without letting loose some of your possessions).

In the HP line, the absolute worst relation between desk space usage and functionality must be the HP46.

[John Garza (3665)]

(06-09-2023 07:48 PM)Siegfried Wrote:  There must be various modes of collecting, some are after "one of each" while others just enjoy gathering stuff without much of a system (would be interesting if that correlates with BMI, I have heard the theory that you can't lose weight without letting loose some of your possessions).

I have heard of the BMI correlation. Not all collectors, but the 'driven ones', have a trait for gluttony. They seem to be related. Amassing desired objects (including food) seems to satisfy a need in them.

[rprosperi]

(06-09-2023 11:54 PM)John Garza (3665) Wrote:  I have heard of the BMI correlation. Not all collectors, but the 'driven ones', have a trait for gluttony. They seem to be related. Amassing desired objects (including food) seems to satisfy a need in them.

I suppose one could amass undesired objects, but there hardly seems any point to do so...

[John Garza (3665)]

(06-10-2023 12:07 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  I suppose one could amass undesired objects, but there hardly seems any point to do so...

I think at that point, you're getting into the distinction between collectors and hoarders.

-J