Adhesive/tabbed overlays - C47 & WP43 (DM42), WP3xS, DB48X, newRPL variants!

[c3d]

(10-19-2024 05:36 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  UPDATE 10/19/24: POSSIBLE CHANGES COMING TO DB48x/DB50x
Christophe has notified me (and everyone) that there will likely be a layout change coming to the DB48x/DB50x overlays. My intent right now is to change over to the new version once it's ready, but that time is still unknown. Users of the current overlays will still be supported on future firmware releases, so those won't become obsolete when the changeover happens. I am continuing to offer the current version for sale because they won't be rendered useless when the new one is implemented...

Indeed. If you are curious, the current tentative layout is documented in this post.

I will not implement this until I have implemented full keyboard customization, and when I have that, I will have two configuration files corresponding to old and new keyboard layouts. This is how I plan to make sure that owners of the current overlay are not at a disadvantage.

If you have comments or wishes about the layout, now is a good time to reply to the post above ;-)

[spiff72]

Thread bump...

Reminder that today is the final day you can order overlays at the older pricing before the increase kicks in tomorrow (Nov 1st)!

[c3d]

(10-19-2024 05:36 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  UPDATE 10/19/24: POSSIBLE CHANGES COMING TO DB48x/DB50x
Christophe has notified me (and everyone) that there will likely be a layout change coming to the DB48x/DB50x overlays. My intent right now is to change over to the new version once it's ready, but that time is still unknown. Users of the current overlays will still be supported on future firmware releases, so those won't become obsolete when the changeover happens. I am continuing to offer the current version for sale because they won't be rendered useless when the new one is implemented...

So it seems quite likely at this point that the release this (long) week-end is when this change finally happens.

The default keyboard layout will be the one discussed in this thread. For people who already own overlays with the previous iterations, two additional layouts will be available, one that is really close to the DM42 key layout, and one that is similar, but swaps the `exp` and `log10` keys.

@spiff72, are you ready to produce the new overlays? I'd like to order two.

[spiff72]

(11-09-2024 06:31 PM)c3d Wrote:  

(10-19-2024 05:36 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  UPDATE 10/19/24: POSSIBLE CHANGES COMING TO DB48x/DB50x
Christophe has notified me (and everyone) that there will likely be a layout change coming to the DB48x/DB50x overlays. My intent right now is to change over to the new version once it's ready, but that time is still unknown. Users of the current overlays will still be supported on future firmware releases, so those won't become obsolete when the changeover happens. I am continuing to offer the current version for sale because they won't be rendered useless when the new one is implemented...

So it seems quite likely at this point that the release this (long) week-end is when this change finally happens.

The default keyboard layout will be the one discussed in this thread. For people who already own overlays with the previous iterations, two additional layouts will be available, one that is really close to the DM42 key layout, and one that is similar, but swaps the `exp` and `log10` keys.

@spiff72, are you ready to produce the new overlays? I'd like to order two.

I am not ready to make the new one (yet). I will work on this over the weekend.

I will use the image from the post you linked to above for the new version, but can you clarify the additional two layouts? I assume that one is the version of the overlay that I have been producing up to now, and the other is just a keylabel swap?

[c3d]

(11-09-2024 07:33 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  

(11-09-2024 06:31 PM)c3d Wrote:  So it seems quite likely at this point that the release this (long) week-end is when this change finally happens.

The default keyboard layout will be the one discussed in this thread. For people who already own overlays with the previous iterations, two additional layouts will be available, one that is really close to the DM42 key layout, and one that is similar, but swaps the `exp` and `log10` keys.

@spiff72, are you ready to produce the new overlays? I'd like to order two.

I am not ready to make the new one (yet). I will work on this over the weekend.

I will use the image from the post you linked to above for the new version, but can you clarify the additional two layouts? I assume that one is the version of the overlay that I have been producing up to now, and the other is just a keylabel swap?

Please check the DB48-Keys directory in the dev branch.

The file ending in 001.png is the new default.

The file ending in 005.png is I believe the one you have been producing.

The file ending in 003.png is closer to the DM42. It's what the project started with, but I don't remember if you ever produced overlays with that layout. Some people have complained about me swapping EXP and LOG10, so that's why it's there.

I hope that this is sufficient clarification. Otherwise, let me know.

[spiff72]

(11-09-2024 09:16 PM)c3d Wrote:  

(11-09-2024 07:33 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  I am not ready to make the new one (yet). I will work on this over the weekend.

I will use the image from the post you linked to above for the new version, but can you clarify the additional two layouts? I assume that one is the version of the overlay that I have been producing up to now, and the other is just a keylabel swap?

Please check the DB48-Keys directory in the dev branch.

The file ending in 001.png is the new default.

The file ending in 005.png is I believe the one you have been producing.

The file ending in 003.png is closer to the DM42. It's what the project started with, but I don't remember if you ever produced overlays with that layout. Some people have complained about me swapping EXP and LOG10, so that's why it's there.

I hope that this is sufficient clarification. Otherwise, let me know.

That helps - thanks!

I went back and looked at the first post of the thread, and it appears that the one ending in 003.png is the one I launched the overlay with around Aug 10 2023. Two months later (October 2023) I released an update alongside the v0.4.6 release.

So with the imminent release of the new version, my thought is to just change to the new layout as my sole offering for the DB48/50x (since it is the default). I am hoping to avoid having to continue offering the current version alongside the new version. This just complicates order fulfillment -- the C47 is a pain since there are multiple options offered (Original and Big Alpha, plus the adhesive/tabbed variants). Having both overlays (old vs new), DB48x and DB50x, and adhesive/tabbed makes for 8 possible variants of the DBxxx overlays...

On another topic - the new release of the DM42n complicated the DB48x/DB50x overlays:
- DB48x is only for the DM42 hardware
- DB50x is for the DM32 and DM42n hardware, but the keylabels are different - more are needed for the DM32, but the DM42 and DM42n would have the same keylabel sets.

I have been sending out the DB50x overlay (with the full set of keylabels suitable for DM32) for people installing on either DM42n or DM32 hardware. DM42n users just omit some of the provided keylabels, while DM32 users require all of them.

The fact that the internal processor dictates whether the DB48x or the DB50x firmware is installed makes things confusing, but it's manageable. I just need to ask everyone what hardware they are installing DBxxx overlays on to make sure I provide the right one.

[spiff72]

To add...

The fact that I need to clarify with everyone who orders a DBxxx overlay forced me to refund an order because after two weeks I couldn't get a response (after several emails and even paypal messages). This person also failed to select the option for sending money to a friend, so when I eventually refunded them (instead of holding their money indefinitely), I had to eat those fees, and my guess is that the customer lost money on foreign transaction fees.

So PLEASE be responsive to emails from me if you place an order!

[raprism]

(11-09-2024 09:50 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  

(11-09-2024 09:16 PM)c3d Wrote:  [...]
The file ending in 003.png is closer to the DM42. It's what the project started with, but I don't remember if you ever produced overlays with that layout. Some people have complained about me swapping EXP and LOG10, so that's why it's there.
[...]

[...]
So with the imminent release of the new version, my thought is to just change to the new layout as my sole offering for the DB48/50x (since it is the default). I am hoping to avoid having to continue offering the current version alongside the new version. This just complicates order fulfillment -- the C47 is a pain since there are multiple options offered (Original and Big Alpha, plus the adhesive/tabbed variants). Having both overlays (old vs new), DB48x and DB50x, and adhesive/tabbed makes for 8 possible variants of the DBxxx overlays...
[...]

On the other hand there is no need to print db48x vs db50x to get the functionality for the underlying firmware (DMCP on DM42, DMCP5 on either DM42n or DM32).

It is needed to get key labels, if the keymap deviates at all or too much from the hardware keys.

The '42style' is the design that deviates least of all from DM42 and DM42n keys. It is easy to remember without key labels:

- Σ+ is 'the wheel' (I guess there is the reason that specifically Σ+ can be overwritten in C47, because there is the STAT menu)
- STO is STO, RCL lets you look at VARs, Rdown is a STK command

But I don't get it how you manage to remember Exp instead of LOG, and why ever this swap was introduced. I'm therefore very happy that these keymap feature was implemented, and I do not need any key sticker for this setup. (Though this LOG on my 'legacy' overlay is wrong for my preferred keymap.)

So for newcomers it might be of value to get a 42style-like overlay.

From my perspective the usual math functions provided by default DM42x keys are eventually not of equal importance, but SIN COS TAN are by far not more important compared to LN and Exp, LOG and 10^x as suggested by the new default key mapping. In that respect I do not understand the decisions made. The discussion should have taken place in the db48x thread, there was some chance to do so, but apparently the upfront discussion was taken as granted. By writing my opinion here I just want to make sure that the new default style might be not an option for some scientists enjoying the selection of primary commands as given by the HP42S design.

[c3d]

(11-16-2024 11:57 AM)raprism Wrote:  

(11-09-2024 09:50 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  [...]
So with the imminent release of the new version, my thought is to just change to the new layout as my sole offering for the DB48/50x (since it is the default). I am hoping to avoid having to continue offering the current version alongside the new version. This just complicates order fulfillment -- the C47 is a pain since there are multiple options offered (Original and Big Alpha, plus the adhesive/tabbed variants). Having both overlays (old vs new), DB48x and DB50x, and adhesive/tabbed makes for 8 possible variants of the DBxxx overlays...
[...]

On the other hand there is no need to print db48x vs db50x to get the functionality for the underlying firmware (DMCP on DM42, DMCP5 on either DM42n or DM32).

It is needed to get key labels, if the keymap deviates at all or too much from the hardware keys.

The '42style' is the design that deviates least of all from DM42 and DM42n keys. It is easy to remember without key labels:

- Σ+ is 'the wheel' (I guess there is the reason that specifically Σ+ can be overwritten in C47, because there is the STAT menu)
- STO is STO, RCL lets you look at VARs, Rdown is a STK command

But I don't get it how you manage to remember Exp instead of LOG, and why ever this swap was introduced.

Because when looking at common math formulas, you see "exp" a gigabazillion times more often than base-10 log :-)

Quote: I'm therefore very happy that these keymap feature was implemented, and I do not need any key sticker for this setup. (Though this LOG on my 'legacy' overlay is wrong for my preferred keymap.)

So for newcomers it might be of value to get a 42style-like overlay.

From my perspective the usual math functions provided by default DM42x keys are eventually not of equal importance, but SIN COS TAN are by far not more important compared to LN and Exp, LOG and 10^x as suggested by the new default key mapping. In that respect I do not understand the decisions made.

Look at an HP48 or HP50 keyboard, and you will see the same pattern: MATH as primary key, SIN COS TAN as primaries, EXP/LN and 10^x/LOG as first and second shift on the same keys.

Quote:The discussion should have taken place in the db48x thread, there was some chance to do so, but apparently the upfront discussion was taken as granted.

Yes, for a very simple reason: this is a personal preference, that is based entirely on what you are doing (therefore there is just no good or bad choice). Therefore, there was roughly 100% chances that there would be no agreement. I have a scientific proof of this. In the interest of efficiency, I had zero desire to engage in endless bikeshedding :-) My intent was, from the very beginning, to have a customizable layout, and that is the only correct answer to your question. It actually demolishes the notion that I took my personal preferences as "granted", actually ;-)

If you don't like the current layouts, you are welcome to add your own and submit a patch to the project. I has very good chances of being accepted. The primary reason there are multiple choices today is to teach developers how to do it.

(I am also looking at how to make such preferences persist across upgrades; there is a documented method in DMCP, could not make it work so far).

Quote:By writing my opinion here I just want to make sure that the new default style might be not an option for some scientists enjoying the selection of primary commands as given by the HP42S design.

This is roughly n% of my user base, where n is between 0 and 99 (I know it's not 100%, because I wanted the new default layout).

[raprism]

(11-18-2024 12:13 AM)c3d Wrote:  [...]

Quote:By writing my opinion here I just want to make sure that the new default style might be not an option for some scientists enjoying the selection of primary commands as given by the HP42S design.

This is roughly n% of my user base, where n is between 0 and 99 (I know it's not 100%, because I wanted the new default layout).

Yes it's clear for me that the HP48 style was taken, and that I cannot and don't want to convince you, Christophe, to change your plans for default styles.

I was writing to Jeff, because he wrote "my thought is to just change to the new layout as my sole offering for the DB48/50x". With a fine RPL calculator operated on a fine DM42x machine with (mostly) fine HP42 primary key layout this can be - arguably - seen as bad decision. But of course I am not the only customer, and I still have a spare 'legacy' overlay.

[spiff72]

(11-18-2024 01:39 AM)raprism Wrote:  

(11-18-2024 12:13 AM)c3d Wrote:  [...]


This is roughly n% of my user base, where n is between 0 and 99 (I know it's not 100%, because I wanted the new default layout).

Yes it's clear for me that the HP48 style was taken, and that I cannot and don't want to convince you, Christophe, to change your plans for default styles.

I was writing to Jeff, because he wrote "my thought is to just change to the new layout as my sole offering for the DB48/50x". With a fine RPL calculator operated on a fine DM42x machine with (mostly) fine HP42 primary key layout this can be - arguably - seen as bad decision. But of course I am not the only customer, and I still have a spare 'legacy' overlay.

I am just trying to keep things simple.

I believe I stated it at that time, but the combinations of DB48/DB50, adhesive vs tabbed, and legacy vs "new"(need a better name) lead to 8 different types of overlays to maintain.

The fact that there is a DB48 and a DB50 that are basically the same (just meant for different hardware) adds a layer of complexity that doesn't seem necessary.

[raprism]

(11-18-2024 02:08 AM)spiff72 Wrote:  

(11-18-2024 01:39 AM)raprism Wrote:  Yes it's clear for me that the HP48 style was taken, and that I cannot and don't want to convince you, Christophe, to change your plans for default styles.

I was writing to Jeff, because he wrote "my thought is to just change to the new layout as my sole offering for the DB48/50x". With a fine RPL calculator operated on a fine DM42x machine with (mostly) fine HP42 primary key layout this can be - arguably - seen as bad decision. But of course I am not the only customer, and I still have a spare 'legacy' overlay.

I am just trying to keep things simple.

I believe I stated it at that time, but the combinations of DB48/DB50, adhesive vs tabbed, and legacy vs "new"(need a better name) lead to 8 different types of overlays to maintain.

The fact that there is a DB48 and a DB50 that are basically the same (just meant for different hardware) adds a layer of complexity that doesn't seem necessary.

Indeed! IMHO an overlay showing the project name db48x seems sufficient to keep it simple.

Non-adhesive overlays can be transferred in between all 3 hardware models without loss of functionality, if I'm not mistaken.

Key labels are a different story. I'm just asking for the variant, that require only [☸], [VAR], [STK] and ['()] to be complete, but these 4 could be even omitted (mapping in brain [∑+] to [☸], [RCL] to [VAR], [R↓] to [STK], [XEQ] to ['()]). In that sense 42style is the simplest solution.

(((Trying not to debate, if exp or the inverse function is more often needed for calculations, and not thinking about dB scales ;-) ...))
'legacy' is sure also quite simple solution for DM42 and DM42n.

EDIT: fixed incomplete list of minimum keys with some extra info.

[spiff72]

(11-18-2024 08:01 AM)raprism Wrote:  

(11-18-2024 02:08 AM)spiff72 Wrote:  I am just trying to keep things simple.

I believe I stated it at that time, but the combinations of DB48/DB50, adhesive vs tabbed, and legacy vs "new"(need a better name) lead to 8 different types of overlays to maintain.

The fact that there is a DB48 and a DB50 that are basically the same (just meant for different hardware) adds a layer of complexity that doesn't seem necessary.

Indeed! IMHO an overlay showing the project name db48x seems sufficient to keep it simple.

Non-adhesive overlays can be transferred in between all 3 hardware models without loss of functionality, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes - the only difference between the DB48x and DB50x background overlays are the logo at the bottom. I am now including the full complement of key labels that the DM32 hardware requires regardless of whether the overlay is intended for installation on DM42, DM42n, or DM32.

If DB48x was the universal name, it wouldn't matter to me what hardware they are installing on.

I can't recall, though, if Christophe was protecting for a possible future state where the DB50x may diverge from the DB48x? That may have been the case because he was bumping against the flash storage capacity with the DB48x, but since the change to the floating point library, that situtation improved...

[LinusSch]

(11-18-2024 12:08 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  Yes - the only difference between the DB48x and DB50x background overlays are the logo at the bottom. I am now including the full complement of key labels that the DM32 hardware requires regardless of whether the overlay is intended for installation on DM42, DM42n, or DM32.

If DB48x was the universal name, it wouldn't matter to me what hardware they are installing on.

I can't recall, though, if Christophe was protecting for a possible future state where the DB50x may diverge from the DB48x? That may have been the case because he was bumping against the flash storage capacity with the DB48x, but since the change to the floating point library, that situtation improved...

In the interest of keeping it simple, it makes a lot of sense to keep the same layout even if the newer hardware were to gain functionality over the older DM42. And if I've understood Christophe correctly that is his plan.

On the other hand I've been pondering 32-alike layouts for this project since the very beginning, since that is my preference. These thoughts may result in a layout that does make sense to provide a different overlay for - but that will be based on using 32 hardware, not on using new hardware / db50x build.

[raprism]

(11-18-2024 10:57 PM)LinusSch Wrote:  [...]
On the other hand I've been pondering 32-alike layouts for this project since the very beginning, since that is my preference. These thoughts may result in a layout that does make sense to provide a different overlay for - but that will be based on using 32 hardware, not on using new hardware / db50x build.

So would it be possible to get overlays 'db48x / db50x' default style (with layout in full spirit of legacy designs and new design ideas), but also 42style and 32style? And eventually the latter even without key stickers?

(Also trying to put some stress on LinusSch to share his ideas on specific 32 keymap ;-)

[c3d]

(11-18-2024 12:08 PM)spiff72 Wrote:  

(11-18-2024 08:01 AM)raprism Wrote:  Indeed! IMHO an overlay showing the project name db48x seems sufficient to keep it simple.

Non-adhesive overlays can be transferred in between all 3 hardware models without loss of functionality, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes - the only difference between the DB48x and DB50x background overlays are the logo at the bottom. I am now including the full complement of key labels that the DM32 hardware requires regardless of whether the overlay is intended for installation on DM42, DM42n, or DM32.

If DB48x was the universal name, it wouldn't matter to me what hardware they are installing on.

It does not actually matter, other than for aesthetics.

Quote:I can't recall, though, if Christophe was protecting for a possible future state where the DB50x may diverge from the DB48x? That may have been the case because he was bumping against the flash storage capacity with the DB48x, but since the change to the floating point library, that situtation improved...

That is correct. Also, I think it helps people doing updates to know "I have a DM32 or DM42n, therefore I pick DB50x from the download page".