HP-50gII Discussion (split from 15c CE thread)

[Gilles]

An HP50gII would be great ... But with which version of the RPL? The latest versions of the RPL are very stable. But what would be the idea? Run the standard hp50G ROM by modernizing the emulation layer on a modernized hardware? I really like newRPL but it is still missing many commands (graphics, FORM input/output, sound, etc.). It will be great to have an HP50g "compatibility" mode (sys RPL, emulation ...) , but also to be able to install another OS. I also really like the integration of the SD CARD on the HP50. In newRPL it's impressive and practical for making backups, restoring... I won't enter into the debate of the ENTER key, large or small, right or left. I'll adapt ;D But it's true that the big ENTER key (which I prefer on the left lol) is an HP tradition.

[LinusSch]

(08-30-2023 12:46 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  ... BASIC as programming language, at least as an alternative. Otherwise I'm rather not interested. And I think the calculator is not old enough yet for a "collector's edition". Maybe in twenty years.

A 50gii isn't really of interest to a collector, I guess. I'm no collector. The 46 is the only calculator I've ever wanted to have that I don't really have a practical use for, one of extremely few things at all falling into such a category (all of them being shining examples of what I consider especially great design).

But every time the topic is even hinted at there are quite a few of us who really really want it. Not for collection reasons, but for practical use, for fear of our originals biting the dust and not being able to replace them. Few tools can reach the level of irreplaceability that the calculator that took you through engineering school has - and if it was an RPL calculator, doubly so, it seems.

Nothing else does the same things in a similar enough manner. Granted, I haven't tried C47 or Plus42 yet, apparently they do handle units in some sort of similar way. But can you use units when solving an equation with those? Do they have periodic table with all the atomic weights in them? And whatever other feature that is in this absolute tour-de-force of a professional calculator and became a tightly integrated part of the way someone does their work, carries out their profession, applies their expertise.

Why not add BASIC to the list. It is, for some tasks, a pretty good language. But it would be very finicky to actually write on one of these keyboards so I'd much much rather have a modern incarnation of a 71b for that. Unless, maybe, the calculator has a nice system for easily switchable overlays, including a storage compartment for them!

[f16falcona46]

Note: this is a previous post that was moved from the other thread.

I actually prefer the color scheme of the 50g (white/orange on black) and its keyboard layout because of its greater contrast. And the non-gridded nature of its layout makes it easier for me to locate they key I need to press (along with the different coloration of the digit keys).

The nitpicks I have are mainly:

• The arrow keys should have their stack functions (SWAP, VIEW, etc.) printed.
• It would be nice to support SDHC (or even SDXC), even if the software couldn't use the entire space. SDSC cards are hard to come by these days.
• A more modern connector than Mini-USB.
• Stronger (more rigid and more likely to stay closed) battery cover.
• It would be nice if the ENTER key was a dedicated hinged key, like LS, RS, and ALPHA.
  

but to be honest, even if the 50g was sold in the same form as before, I would buy it. I'm mainly into the key feel and the way the various parts of the calculator software are integrated together. The most important for me is that the features of the calculator feel like a coherent whole.

[johnb]

(08-30-2023 04:09 PM)LinusSch Wrote:  

(08-30-2023 12:46 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  And I think the calculator is not old enough yet for a "collector's edition". Maybe in twenty years.

A 50gii isn't really of interest to a collector, I guess. I'm no collector.
[...]
But every time the topic is even hinted at there are quite a few of us who really really want it. Not for collection reasons, but for practical use, for fear of our originals biting the dust and not being able to replace them. Few tools can reach the level of irreplaceability that the calculator that took you through engineering school has - and if it was an RPL calculator, doubly so, it seems.

Well, I guess my perspective is a slightly weird one, even amongst this crowd. (!!) I consider myself a collector even though I only own a couple dozen machines. But I believe the best way to enjoy my collection is to actually use most of them. So I really really want an HP-50gII. My reasoning is: (1) of the "daily drivers" I have scattered around my desk, I reach for the 48g quite often, though I do love my Voyagers and the 32sII; (2) there are things in our code library that will run on a 50g, not a 48g; (3) getting a good 50g is proving difficult, and will be a bit expensive (for me); (4) I've held a 50g and i hate the keys on it! (5) I love the feel of the keys (and the layout) of the 48g.

Add all of that together, and it means that getting a 50gII is a top priority for me.

--johnb


PS: None of these models got me through any engineering schools. I was "the poor kid" (and later, the cash-strapped newlywed), so I didn't even own an HP. For me, owning and using them now is like the guy who lusted after his friends' Corvette / Mustang / Trans Am / whatever, and now that he's middle-aged and can afford it, he drives his every chance he gets. (LOL!)

PPS: Maximilian, if it's too soon for a "collector's edition" then don't call it a collector's edition. Just call it the HP-50gII if HP builds it, or the DM-50gII if SwissMicros builds it. Just put me down for a pre-order of two, please!

[John Keith]

(08-30-2023 03:44 PM)Gilles Wrote:  But what would be the idea? Run the standard hp50G ROM by modernizing the emulation layer on a modernized hardware? It will be great to have an HP50g "compatibility" mode (sys RPL, emulation ...) , but also to be able to install another OS. I also really like the integration of the SD CARD on the HP50. In newRPL it's impressive and practical for making backups, restoring.

That was my idea, something like EMU48 running an original 50g ROM, alongside NewRPL. The original 50g memory footprint is only 2 MB which is a rounding error on modern hardware. Ideally we would want some method of transferring data between the two, preferably stack-to-stack. This would require some translation due to the different variable-precision format used by NewRPL.

I would suggest a Micro SD card since the connector is much smaller and more compatible with a slim, modern handheld device.

[3298]

(08-27-2023 09:54 AM)ferni123 Wrote:  - A similar keyboard layout as HP 48G, 9x6 matrix with large Enter key.

Without meaning to single you out, I consider the 49/50 keyboard layout a slight improvement over the 48, for two reasons:
- easier to navigate the keyboard while keeping your eyes on the display, precisely because the cursor keys disrupt the grid, giving you a tactile reference point
- no letters on cursor keys, making Alpha-lock mode that much more usable. I do pretty much all my programming in that mode - usually SysRPL, sometimes UserRPL.

Sure, there are many things the 49/50 keyboard could do better. Most importantly:
- shunt the + - * / keys down to align them with the digit block again
- return the ENTER key to double width and a position somewhere in the middle rows.
I don't care if ENTER is left or right; though if Backspace (and unshifted DEL, if it returns - as a shifted function it makes no sense because RIGHT Backspace generally achieves the same) stays right as would be logical from a computer keyboard perspective, then these two or three keys should probably be aligned in some way (the 48 does it horizontally, 49/50 kind of goes for a vertical arrangement).

Other thoughts on the two existing keyboard layouts:
- HIST is mostly associated with the pointless algebraic input mode, but in RPN mode its interactive stack function isn't entirely a duplicate of the UP key: in contexts where the UP key and its shifted variants perform ordinary navigation (editor, input form, etc.) it still summons the interactive stack, giving access to its normal functions and (particularly useful the ECHO soft-key for inserting a previous result into that context. You can re-label it STK if you like, even banish it to a shifted key, but keep it around somewhere please.
- As mentioned above, DEL as shifted key takes as many keystrokes as adjusting the cursor and hitting Backspace instead. That's dumb, either remove it entirely to make room for something else, or return it to an unshifted key as the 48 had. I'd slightly prefer the latter.
- I find UPDIR and HOME to be more intuitive as shifted functions of VAR (as seen on the 49/50) instead of ' (as the 48 did). It's not much of a difference though.
- Swapping MODE and CST back to the 48 layout (unshifted CST, shifted MODE) is fine with me. I don't use CST much because I spend a large chunk of my time with the calculator in Alpha-lock mode, but MODE doesn't get significantly more use - the few settings I change somewhat regularly are either available as shift-hold key combinations (approx and complex modes) or buried so deeply that typing out something like -85 CF is quicker.
- The positions and shifted-ness of SIN, COS, TAN, SQ, ^, LOG, LN, all their inverse functions, INV, EEX, NEG, derivative, integral, summation is a matter of training. I wouldn't mind either layout's take, but I'll give a nod to the 49/50 for lining up summation (Greek upper-case sigma) with Alpha-mode S, as well as LOG, ALOG with EEX (which also deals with base-10 exponents). If ABS gets kicked off the / key in the process of shunting it down and moving and growing ENTER back to a 48-like state, then ABS would fit quite well as shifted function of NEG.
- The 49/50 wastes an unshifted key on the independent variable. Can the user really not remember what it's set to? With a two-line header it's even shown in the display! Let the user type it out with Alpha mode (just one more keystroke, or two if it's Greek lower-case theta for polar coordinates), and give the key to something more important.
- Having all the comparison operators on the keyboard is good. The 48 only had =, I think.
- The 49/50 has done a good job at placing Greek letters in the Alpha-RightShift plane without blocking access to stuff from non-Alpha mode that's useful in Alpha-lock mode (like editing functions COPY, CUT, PASTE, BEGIN, END, or non-letter characters ^, ', =, <, >) while keeping them mostly lined up with corresponding Latin letters. Even the imaginary unit matches I. (Shame about lambda, and there are too many contenders for the S and T places to make a perfect result even possible.)
- Freeing up the soft-keys in Alpha mode would be nice, but it's likely not feasible due to lack of keys. This is one of the things that's actually completely identical across the 48 and 49/50 - all of them use these keys for the first six letters.
- The menus listed on the 49/50 as shifted functions of the soft-menu keys are badly placed. To an extent this is also a result of the key shortage, but requiring shift-hold to access them because RPN mode allocates non-held shift planes to the soft menu is not intuitive. I think some of them can be nested inside others to trim their number down.
- Some other brands have started placing cursor keys in a more central position, presumably to help out left-handed users. As one of those 10% myself, I appreciate that move, but without also placing other important keys (ENTER, DEL, Backspace, shift keys, and ON in its CANCEL / pseudo shift key roles) in a central position that would just be change for the sake of change. And Backspace anywhere other than the right edge feels somewhat wrong ... doubly so for shift keys anywhere other than lower part of the left edge on HP calculators. I'm fine with the 49/50 layout for all of these other than ENTER, and the 48 only gets the cursor keys wrong in the ways I mentioned at the start of this post.
- Regarding the number of keys: I don't see enough keys that can be eliminated to shrink the keyboard, which means the physical dimensions can't get noticeably smaller either (other than display bezels or thickness). I'd rather advocate for adding more: the block to the left of the cursor keys has small enough keys to accommodate a fourth column, and/or maybe a third row (for 2 or 3 or 6 extra keys); the block below the cursor keys is 6x2 on the 48 and 5x3 on the 49/50, and could reasonably grow to 6x3 (for another 3 extra keys). Remember that one full key including shifted functions needs to be sacrificed for the larger ENTER key; this helps "fund" that. The other path to more keys would be a return to a 28-like clamshell form factor, but I expect that to be too fragile in the long run (nevermind the difficulty of truly handheld operation).

[LinusSch]

The 48 has in total 49 keys. The 49/50 has in total 51 keys.

I suggest combining the best of both and upping the total count to 53 keys by going to a 6 wide grid for the section between the cursor keys and the number keys (keeping the cursor keys as on the 49/50). Having a double-wide Enter on a 5 wide grid doesn't seem entirely sane to me for this calculator.

The only drawback is that backspace is then on a smaller key that is less comfortable to press. Maybe the Enter row should be made extra special with large but not double Enter on the left, +/- and EEX and one more that are small like on the 6-wide grid above but not quite lining up with that, to make room for a backspace key large like on the 5-wide grid below.

But then my thumb, used to a 50g, is going to hit backspace thinking it is division. Maybe backspace should be slightly uncomfortable, maybe then I would hit it less often

ETA: On second thought, the smaller keys around it not to mention the hopefully reduced thickness of the calc should help my thumb know that it is not on a 50g so it should be okay. I'm liking this is idea of an Enter key that is not 2/5 wide, not even 2/6 wide, but 3/10 wide.

[johnb]

(08-30-2023 10:51 PM)3298 Wrote:  ...I consider the 49/50 keyboard layout a slight improvement over the 48, for two reasons...

...Sure, there are many things the 49/50 keyboard could do better. Most importantly...

What a very careful and thoughtful analysis! I would have to be holding a 48g and a 50g side by side to fully follow what you're saying, but the parts that I can picture, I like. The simplest example being keeping the 4 main dyadic functions aligned down with the numeric keys.

I generally program the soft menus and use them heavily, so I like having CST, NXT (and so on) accessible.

Regarding the 28s form factor... even though the 28s was my "gateway drug" into HP collecting, on a practical level it is just not as usable as my 48g is. So I would definitely go with some portrait-oriented layout similar to the one you've described, and not a clamshell.

Just please please please make the keys hard and clicky, not rubber!

[Gilles]

One remark about the 50g keyboard. APPS MODE and TOOL are one press key commands. IMHO it s not necessery at all. they could be used for more interesting purposes. On the other hand I like the alpha keyboard because it does not cover the numeric keyboard. the problem is as soon as you modify a key (for example make a double key for ENTER), all the problems arrive in cascades. necessarily there are compromises.

on the new rpl I was skeptical about the long press but in the end it works very well. handling number display formats is also great in newrpl.

[LinusSch]

(08-31-2023 02:51 AM)johnb Wrote:  Just please please please make the keys hard and clicky, not rubber!

I actually don't think there is any risk at all of that particular mistake being repeated this time

(08-31-2023 07:18 AM)Gilles Wrote:  APPS MODE and TOOL are one press key commands.

APPS is useful to me, I'd like to keep it one press, but not the other two.

I use MODE pretty much only when I've had memory loss or I'm on a new installation and I don't have my flags backup handy... very very rare.

I use TOOL occasionally, but only to get to the stack menu, I should really reassign it to that. All the other things in the TOOL menu I access in a different way.

[Michael Lopez]

Hi all,

Lots of detailed ideas & thoughts here confirming interest in a new 50g :-).

One simple & long-standing wish is that maybe the Prime G2 hardware can be converted into a HP50g new generation to save on development & manufacturing costs.

Cheers,

Michael

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-31-2023 08:55 AM)Michael Lopez Wrote:  One simple & long-standing wish is that maybe the Prime G2 hardware can be converted into a HP50g new generation [..]

If that makes it possible, why not?

Still, more costly would be the redevelopment of the firmware. Would it be an option to license NewRPL?

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(08-30-2023 05:32 PM)johnb Wrote:  PPS: Maximilian, if it's too soon for a "collector's edition" then don't call it a collector's edition. Just call it the HP-50gII if HP builds it, or the SM-50gII if SwissMicros builds it. Just put me down for a pre-order of two, please!

I was mentioning the "collectors edition" because this thread forked (or "spawned" or whatever it was called in the times of early bulletin-board-systems...) from the HP-15C LE thread. And I guess the 15C LE was brought to us mainly because of it's 40-year anniversary. The 50g is still too new to be even mentioned in the museum section of this site!

Regarding the keys being too small for writing programs in BASIC: The vast majority, by sheer numbers, of contemporary graphing calculars produced must be the line beginning with the Ti-81. Which is still in production with the Ti-84 Plus after nearly 25 years. All programmable in dialects of BASIC, the very latest also in Python, and the keys are no bigger than those of the HP-50g.

Regards
Max

[Gilles]

I regularly use newRPL but there are still many gaps compared to stock rpl as I explain in a previous message. No graphics mode, no forms or equivalent etc…
No cas also. The hp50g CAS is old and not comparable to the prime CAS but i like it. In some ways I largely prefer it to the prime CAS for simple usage. The fact that the CAS is embedded in RPL is a major advantage for me ( but I know that other people can think the contrary). RPL is a perfect language to manipulate mathematical objects on a calculator.

[Thomas Radtke]

Ok, don't know NewRPL. Just thought the firmware is the major obstacle.

If it's not ready today, how would Moravia rewrite it from scratch?

[Gilles]

(08-31-2023 12:53 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Ok, don't know NewRPL. Just thought the firmware is the major obstacle.

If it's not ready today, how would Moravia rewrite it from scratch?

Here I reach my threshold of incompetence but: if I'm not mistaken the ROM of the HP50 and 49g+ (75 MHz Samsung S3C2410A processor) is the same as the HP49g ROM (4 MHz Yorke-saturn processor). The HP50G already uses an emulation layer (the Samsung emulates the Yorke). I imagine that an HP50gII with other hardware could work by changing the emulation layer of the 50g with a new processor/hardware using most part of the 50G "rom". The newRPL approach is very different since everything is rewritten from scratch and it's a huge job.

[John Keith]

(08-31-2023 12:05 PM)Gilles Wrote:  I regularly use newRPL but there are still many gaps compared to stock rpl as I explain in a previous message. No graphics mode, no forms or equivalent etc…
No cas also. The hp50g CAS is old and not comparable to the prime CAS but i like it. In some ways I largely prefer it to the prime CAS for simple usage. The fact that the CAS is embedded in RPL is a major advantage for me ( but I know that other people can think the contrary). RPL is a perfect language to manipulate mathematical objects on a calculator.

That is one of the main reasons that I wish for a calculator that can switch easily between "classic" HP 49/50 and NewRPL. As NewRPL evolves and improves, there will be less need for "classic mode" but it will still be there when needed to run older programs. No need for NewRPL to reach a state of perfection before launch.

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-31-2023 01:53 PM)Gilles Wrote:  Here I reach my threshold of incompetence but: if I'm not mistaken the ROM of the HP50 and 49g+ (75 MHz Samsung S3C2410A processor) is the same as the HP49g ROM (4 MHz Yorke-saturn processor). The HP50G already uses an emulation layer (the Samsung emulates the Yorke). I imagine that an HP50gII with other hardware could work by changing the emulation layer of the 50g with a new processor/hardware using most part of the 50G "rom". The newRPL approach is very different since everything is rewritten from scratch and it's a huge job.

I've read that, too, but not really understood how it was expanded to become the 50G. Must have been a labor of love.

An emulation would be ok for me. Just to have a backup for my 50G. But then it should not be pricier than a used calculator.

[LinusSch]

(08-31-2023 01:53 PM)Gilles Wrote:  Here I reach my threshold of incompetence but: if I'm not mistaken the ROM of the HP50 and 49g+ (75 MHz Samsung S3C2410A processor) is the same as the HP49g ROM (4 MHz Yorke-saturn processor). The HP50G already uses an emulation layer (the Samsung emulates the Yorke). I imagine that an HP50gII with other hardware could work by changing the emulation layer of the 50g with a new processor/hardware using most part of the 50G "rom". The newRPL approach is very different since everything is rewritten from scratch and it's a huge job.

Essentially yes. The 50g, as well as the recent 15c CE, probably the 12c as well but that is beyond my knowledge, are already using emulators running on ARM. So the art of making the old ROMs run on modern hardware is certainly alive and well. For Voyager ROMs the art of patching them for new capabilities is also available, I'm not sure whether that exists at all for RPL ROMs. There was some patching done for Emu48 but I'm not sure who and how. I also don't know (or remember) to what extent the source code for these ROMs exist somewhere, I do remember the 35s being lost.

newRPL doesn't carry any licensing hurdles (Moravia would need written permission from the team in order to use the name, but they don't even need that in order to use the code). So if they wanted to reimplement and they have the RPL sources they could rebuild on the newRPL base.

[LinusSch]

(08-31-2023 03:28 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  An emulation would be ok for me. Just to have a backup for my 50G. But then it should not be pricier than a used calculator.

That's been getting easier and easier for a while now. Maybe even too easy, I've seen them at DM42-like prices here, that's... I don't want to pay that unless the calculator is really good. On the other hand, it certainly could be really good.