HP 12c Platinum 25th Anniversary Limited Edition Hardwood Box Set

[AnnoyedOne]

(08-15-2024 02:07 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Does anyone have a 12CP that doesn't follow one of the above simple color schemes?

Out of curiosity I looked at 100+ 12CP's on eBay, including a number of silver faced ones, and only one looked a bit blue near the bottom. A silver faced one in poor condition with sub-standard photo's.

None were obviously as "blue" as the one Thomas Klemm posted a photo of.

So I'm sticking with my cost-cutting-factory theory for now.

A1

PS: I've gone back and checked eBay. I found 149 HP-12C Platinum calculator listings total (excluding related items) with 8 (5.4% of the total) silver faced (early) models. All were "used". I ignored "new" ones.

Yesterday I only looked at the listing list photo's and listings themselves where the photo's didn't show much.

Since I didn't find any "blue" ones I assume that they're uncommon in the wild. Perhaps not rare but harder to find. The silver faced Platinums I looked at were "black" as were the others.

[rprosperi]

The first 3 12CP's I picked up from their storage box are all silver-faced with blue/black body just like in the photo above, and then the next 3 I picked up from the other end of the stack (by age) were all black with black. I'm definitely not saying it must be as I postulated above, but it seems to be so... which is exactly why I asked if anyone has one that doesn't meet those categories.

Perhaps I should have asked folks to check their machines and weigh in with

YES - mine fits those color schemes, or

NO - I have one that does not fit those color schemes

[dm319]

(10-13-2023 04:37 AM)kmidson Wrote:  This display box looks similar to one that i've had for years:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmidso...586986282/

Wow interesting collection and great photographs! I'd be curious if any of them display different behaviour in solving these TVM problems. So far the HP-12c and emulator seem to give the same result, HP-12c platinum is a step up in accuracy, and there may be a brazillian HP-12c which behaves completely differently. Would be curious to see if there are any other variants to its algorithms.

[rprosperi]

(08-20-2024 08:59 PM)dm319 Wrote:  

(10-13-2023 04:37 AM)kmidson Wrote:  This display box looks similar to one that i've had for years:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/keithmidso...586986282/

Wow interesting collection and great photographs! I'd be curious if any of them display different behaviour in solving these TVM problems. So far the HP-12c and emulator seem to give the same result, HP-12c platinum is a step up in accuracy, and there may be a brazillian HP-12c which behaves completely differently. Would be curious to see if there are any other variants to its algorithms.

You find that all 12C's (not including and Platinum flavors) all produce identical results, which is one of the top priority goals HP has sought with all versions since the late 80's when it becaem the de facto calculator for the home finance and related industries. To this day, there are home loan contracts which cite payment rates and other numbers "... as determined by an HP-12C...", so they're smart to never mess with that.

The HP-12CP Prestige was manufactured in, and officially was sold only in Brazil, and though it has a slightly different color bezel, it is a 12CP on the inside and behaves identically to the 2nd gen of 12CP's (after they added UNDO and [<-]). I've heard claims that it was also sold in other South American countries, but no one has ever provided evidence, though I suspect a few grey market units made there way into other markets.

[AnnoyedOne]

(08-20-2024 08:59 PM)dm319 Wrote:  Would be curious to see if there are any other variants to its algorithms.

As far as I know there have only been five (5) major versions of the HP-12C firmware.

For the HP-12C:

1) The original HP NUT code (in assembler). Perhaps a few minor changes were made over the years but probably nothing significant.

2) The 2008 redesign based on the AT91SAML128 SoC (System-on-a-Chip). It emulates the original NUT code and thus works the same. User-updatable firmware via a cable. Called the HP-12C+ by many but now obsolete. The same hardware base as the HP-15C LE. Much faster than the original.

3) Another redesign (in 2015) to replace the end-of-life (EOL) AT91SAML128 with the ATSAM4LC2CA but otherwise the same. It uses a different (USB vs serial) cable for firmware updates. The same one as used for the HP-15C CE (which uses the same hardware base). Mine (a 2022 model HP-12C+) contains firmware dated 30th January 2015. To my knowledge that is the latest public release.

For the HP-12C Platinum:

4) A redesign of the HP-12C in 2003 using totally new firmware based on a 6502 SoC. Firmware v1 doesn't have the "backspace" or "undo" functions. Silver face.

5) Firmware v2 added the "backspace" and "undo" functions. Silver and black faced versions. A bit slower than v1 but still faster than the original HP-12C.

The Platinum is not the same as the first three. It can return different results and is not user updatable with different firmware. However it has additional functionality and more guard digits. The algorithms they use may or may not be different.

As for different firmware on units made in Brazil I have no idea. I searched these forums (for "Brazil 12C") and found nothing.

I think the HP-12C 25th Anniversary Edition is the same as the original 1981 (1981+25=2006) HP-12C and contains a HP NUT CPU. As for the HP HP-12C PC/Android "virtual calculators" (both of which I have) I think they also emulate the original NUT code. The (PC) HP Platinum one I have emulates the v2 6502 firmware.

A1

PS: There are a few HP-12C+ firmware variants. Probably bug fixes with no extra functionality.

PPS: According to their web page the SwissMicros DM12L emulates HP-12C NUT code (just like the HP-12C+ and HP virtual calculators).

[dm319]

(08-21-2024 12:17 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  As for different firmware on units made in Brazil I have no idea. I searched these forums (for "Brazil 12C") and found nothing.

Someone on reddit had an issue with an HP-12c that would not change the decimal point into a comma, on an amazon-bought HP-12c. These are the photos of the device. If you look through the negative reviews of the calculator, they talk about similar issues - Error 7 on NPV and IRR calculations, inaccuracies and this issue with the comma. We have mentioned it on the forum in places, and the consensus was that it was fake. However (though I don't speak Portugese) it appears to be an official HP vendor on Amazon, and I found this intriguing review (google translated from Portugese from above link):

"I bought this calculator and discovered that there is a batch of this product being sold on the market with some defects, there are several reports from other buyers who also discovered while using the HP, the calculator does not change from dot to comma and vice versa and does not perform rate return "tir" showing "error 7" instead of showing the result, I already exchanged it with the brand's representative and they still sent another defective calculator and apparently HP doesn't want to remove the batch from the market or do anything a recall of calculators, whoever buys it should try to do some tests to make sure it didn't come with a defect."

What I find interesting is that testing (kindly performed by the redditor) the machine with edge-case TVM problems reveals very different accuracy results to the regular HP-12c and HP-12c platinum:

Code:

|calculator                  |1    |1b   |2    |3    |4    |5A   |5B   |6A   |6B   |7    |8    |9    |10   |11   |12   | median|   mean|
|:---------------------------|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|:----|------:|------:|
|HP-12cp                     |12.4 |11   |11.7 |12.2 |11.1 |ERR  |ERR  |ERR  |ERR  |21.4 |12.2 |3.2  |3.5  |11   |2.8  | 10.972|  9.031|
|HP-12c                      |9.6  |8.6  |8.8  |10.6 |9.1  |ERR  |ERR  |ERR  |ERR  |19.7 |11.5 |1.7  |1.6  |4.6  |1    |  8.278|  7.337|
|HP-12c comma                |9.6  |9.5  |11.7 |7.2  |ERR  |8.7  |NA   |8.4  |NA   |ERR  |12.2 |3.2  |3.2  |ERR  |ERR  |  7.182|  5.382|

You can see it returns some results where the regular HP product does not, and fails on problems that the regular HP products return an answer, suggesting a very different set of solving algorithms.

From my point of view, I think the jury's out on whether this is a fake or not, but it would make you wonder what sequence of events allowed this calculator to bear the HP-12c name if it isn't fake. I guess this might explain my motivation to check the precise results of HP-12c's that we assume to use exactly the same firmware - I'm curious if there were any subtle tweaks to the solving algorithms, but don't have these variants to try it out.

[dm319]

(08-21-2024 12:17 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  The Platinum is not the same as the first three. It can return different results and is not user updatable with different firmware. However it has additional functionality and more guard digits. The algorithms they use may or may not be different.

Agree - it has more digit precision, and seems to return exactly the same results as the other saturn calculators, with two notable exceptions. Like the HP-12c, it also apparently takes the ceiling of 'N', and when solving i for very close to zero, it is more like the HP-12c. As you say - it may or may not have the same algorithm as the HP-12c, but on working on different hardware with different digit precision.

[dm319]

(08-20-2024 11:03 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  To this day, there are home loan contracts which cite payment rates and other numbers "... as determined by an HP-12C...", so they're smart to never mess with that.

Yes, I would hope so! But doesn't stop me being curious that they really are alike!

[rprosperi]

A number of years ago (10?) there definitely were 12C fake/clone calculators from some knock-off Chinese company being sold, but on close inspection they were not hard to identify.

Unrelated to that, many (many!) people contacted HP technical support over the years about the radix switching 'problem' and in pretty much all cases it was from not following the instructions (which IMHO are pretty clear)

Quote:To do so, turn the calculator off, then press and hold down the [.] key while you press [ON]

however lots of people hold [ON] and press [.], or press both, etc. leading to these false alarms.

As for the vendor in question, who can say, though I've never heard of a vendor, whcih is selling grey-market goods, not claim that they were 'authorized' to do so.

The concept of a 'bad batch' of units which only exhibit a few obscure s/w issues reflects no reality about how these are manufactured. Sure, some units are bad coming off the line, but only a limited batch of them producing "error 7" or not changing radix mode is pretty remote, but it does sound like something a dealer's tech support might say in order to get an unhappy buyer to accept a swapped unit which is not from the bad batch. Maybe these 2 subtle defects are simply details that the clone maker never caught, and those bad units went on to create a whole story... and here we are 10 years later still discussing it...

[dm319]

(08-21-2024 09:57 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Unrelated to that, many (many!) people contacted HP technical support over the years about the radix switching 'problem' and in pretty much all cases it was from not following the instructions (which IMHO are pretty clear)

If you have a look on the reddit thread above, the person says that they can change the radix on another hp-12c.

If this is a fake, and I agree could well be, you must admit it looks pretty good.

Another weird thing is you can find people complaining about exactly the same thing about a product bought from the official HP brazil store here. Have a look at this review (again translated):

"It's already the fourth calculator I buy and comes with a defect. All came c/defecation "Error 7" in the IRR calculation and does not change the comma score. Even the guarantee could not solve. I would like HP to contact me, for who knows we can solve the situation and I have a calculator that really works. I am deeply disappointed, unfortunately!"

Is this a fake so good it is being sold on official channels? Even if it is a fake, it seems like a lot of people have bought it assuming it is the real thing. I know we all believe that no brand would tarnish the reputation of the venerable HP-12c, but what if it happened inadvertently? A factory in china accidentally flashed on the wrong ROM. Or a calculator got commisioned based purely on technical requirements and wasn't thoroughly tested.

This has made me very tempted to try to get hold of one of these now.

[AnnoyedOne]

(08-20-2024 11:03 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  The HP-12CP Prestige was manufactured in, and officially was sold only in Brazil...

The photo on this page shows one new in a sealed plastic package. The text doesn't seem to be in English. Brazillian Portugese?

http://www.hp-collection.org/calculators/12cpr.html

(08-21-2024 11:04 PM)dm319 Wrote:  Is this a fake so good it is being sold on official channels?

Could be fake hardware/firmware/packaging. I have personally reverse engineered the first two in my career as an EE. Or defective CPU/ROM parts (i.e. chips). Some Chinese factories are/were known to do this kind of thing (on the side or not). I once heard a coworker complain about "knock off" product from China that he'd personally seen. As I recall he was able to suck the firmware from a unit and determine that it was fake. Personally I view products made in China as suspect. If one buys from a trustworthy source it's probably genuine. Caveat emptor!

It is possible that a manufacturer/distributor receives fake product that looks genuine. I've seen it happen. I've seen suspect components used as well. It can be very hard to detect but "outsourcing" is a thing nowadays so some ignore the potential consequences. How do you know you that you have purchased genuine product? You often don't for sure. Unlikely but it happens.

Copying embedded ROMs requires special equipment and knowledge but it can be done. Extracting images from flash devices often isn't as hard. I'm surprised that newer HP-12C and HP-15C firmware images are seemingly "in the clear". Perhaps because anyone with Atmels' SAM-BA can dump it anyway. That makes it easy to reverse engineer.

I deliberately obfuscated downloadable firmware images for a product I developed (I wrote the bootloader as well). The method was pretty simple so as to be small/fast but was undocumented. I also wrote a PC program to "encode" the firmware image before releasing it. Only intended to stop simple hacking. Anyone with a JTAG programmer could suck the actual firmware anyway (I've personally done it).

A1

[rprosperi]

(08-22-2024 11:37 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  

(08-20-2024 11:03 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  The HP-12CP Prestige was manufactured in, and officially was sold only in Brazil...

The photo on this page shows one new in a sealed plastic package. The text doesn't seem to be in English. Brazillian Portugese?

http://www.hp-collection.org/calculators/12cpr.html

(08-21-2024 11:04 PM)dm319 Wrote:  Is this a fake so good it is being sold on official channels?

I have both an open, used Prestige and this exact same unopened Prestige package. It's definitely original, authorized by HP, etc. and not a clone/knock-off. Best part is the unopened one was sold on eBay as a normal 12CP, for less than $50. A very good day!

[dm319]

(08-22-2024 11:37 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Or defective CPU/ROM parts (i.e. chips).

It seems like a re-implementation to me. Take this TVM problem from Dieter:

N: 10
i: ?
PV: 50
PMT: -30
FV: 400
P/YR: 1
end-mode

There isn't a single HP financial calculator that can return an interest rate on this.

Except for this HP-12c 'brazil/comma' version.

(08-22-2024 11:37 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Personally I view products made in China as suspect.

That would apply to many new HP-12cs though?

(08-22-2024 11:37 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  It is possible that a manufacturer/distributor receives fake product that looks genuine.

I wonder about this, but I also wonder why.

(08-22-2024 11:37 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  I'm surprised that newer HP-12C and HP-15C firmware images are seemingly "in the clear".

Exactly - it's not hard to get a copy of the HP-12C firmware - so if you're faking it anyway, why not use that?

(08-22-2024 11:56 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  I have both an open, used Prestige and this exact same unopened Prestige package. It's definitely original, authorized by HP, etc. and not a clone/knock-off.

Bob, I'm not referring to the Prestige. This a gold HP-12c sold in Brazil. Someone previously pointed out the taller '%' symbol suggesting it may be fake - however, I've attached a picture from the official HP Brazil website.

The picture also matches the image that people have posted in their reviews. Most people are happy with the product, but there is certainly a recurrent theme of people who have noticed some functions aren't working. It's only when you really push the TVM problems that you find it falls very short of the ability of regular HP financial calculators at times (on other occasions exceeding it).

[AnnoyedOne]

(08-22-2024 07:41 PM)dm319 Wrote:  

(08-22-2024 11:37 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Personally I view products made in China as suspect.

That would apply to many new HP-12cs though?

No. As of late 2022 the HP-12C and HP-12C Platinum are made in the Philippines by Moravia under license from HP. I have a 12C and Uwe-001 a HP-12C Platinum made at that time. No "Hewlett Packard" text and both use two CR2032 batteries.

The said many stores still sell (lots of old stock I assume) the Chinese (one CR2032) made versions.

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22157.html

A1