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d b · 01-31-2014, 04:39 PM

(01-31-2014 04:00 PM)Tugdual Wrote: Oh well, I guess I'll stick on my 15C LE.

Not the worst plan you could have. You're used to it. I do wish that HP would release a fix for the bugs that also accesses the unused RAM. Why did they stop at just extremely good?
Since you do want a 4 line display; i'd suggest you save your nickels and dimes and in a year or so you'll be able to get the 43s, which will be the best tool, and toy, ever made.

HP67 · (This post was last modified: 02-07-2014 10:03 AM by HP67.)

What about Swissmicros? Anybody have experience with them?

It looks like a fascinating concept but I don't like the fact they made them so small. If they would have made them official size and weight I would probably have taken a chance and bought one to try. Other than that, having a new calculator with real HP firmware from an old model you like is pretty attractive. And they are reflashable so if something is wrong it could be fixed.

Massimo Gnerucci · 02-07-2014, 11:52 AM

(02-07-2014 10:03 AM)HP67 Wrote: What about Swissmicros? Anybody have experience with them?

Yes. Pretty fast, no bugs as on 15LE, and a, uhm, peculiar keyboard. Wink

(02-07-2014 10:03 AM)HP67 Wrote: It looks like a fascinating concept but I don't like the fact they made them so small. If they would have made them official size and weight I would probably have taken a chance and bought one to try. Other than that, having a new calculator with real HP firmware from an old model you like is pretty attractive. And they are reflashable so if something is wrong it could be fixed.

They are not outrageously expensive, why not try one?
I bought the full set and then some...

I think we should encourage all these labours of love: MLDL2000, Clonix, NoVram, WP-34S, SwissMicros, SY-41CL, and all those I am forgetting right now simply wouldn't exist if all these creative people were not willing to spend countless hours debugging their marvels.

A little encouragement is due.

And a big thank you all, once more.

Thomas Radtke · 02-07-2014, 01:04 PM

(02-07-2014 10:03 AM)HP67 Wrote: What about Swissmicros? Anybody have experience with them?

The keyboard of my DM15CC is a nightmare. OTOH, the firmware seems to be bugfree with some extras. These guys should produce a replacement-PCB for the 15C LE.

02-07-2014, 11:37 PM

(02-07-2014 01:04 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote: The keyboard of my DM15CC is a nightmare. OTOH, the firmware seems to be bugfree with some extras. These guys should produce a replacement-PCB for the 15C LE.

The keyboard is indeed a nightmare and precludes the use of these calculators as a practical tool. But they are a labor of love (as so many other projects) and I gladly support such initiatives. The Swiss calcs are so nifty that you cannot withstand acquiring one (or the whole set).
While I admire the hardware aspects of the 15C LE (save for its battery usage), I wonder whether even a PCB replacement would be necessary. Perhaps a firmware rewrite would be all it takes to activate the extra memory capabilities of the Swiss calcs. Perhaps the 15C LE PCB already has the extra memory capacity required. But I suspect we will never see such a firmware update from HP.
Compare the attitude towards the PSE bug with the attitude of Dave Packard when the HP-35 bug was discovered (link). And HP would not even have to refund or repair them. They would only have to issue a firmware update. Sigh.

walter b · 02-08-2014, 04:40 AM

(02-07-2014 11:37 PM)Jeroen Van Nieuwenhove Wrote: Compare the attitude towards the PSE bug with the attitude of Dave Packard when the HP-35 bug was discovered (link). And HP would not even have to refund or repair them. They would only have to issue a firmware update. Sigh.

Those were the days, my friend, ...

d:-/

Thomas Radtke · 02-08-2014, 09:13 AM

(02-07-2014 11:37 PM)Jeroen Van Nieuwenhove Wrote: While I admire the hardware aspects of the 15C LE (save for its battery usage), I wonder whether even a PCB replacement would be necessary.

Probably not, but there's no SDK for the hardware given. How should an outsider know how to access the LCD, battery status or the keyboard matrix.

I too cannot understand why there's no update. After the bugs were found, I was convinced we would see a new firmware. This is very strange.

Marcus von Cube · 02-08-2014, 01:15 PM

(02-08-2014 09:13 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote: Probably not, but there's no SDK for the hardware given. How should an outsider know how to access the LCD, battery status or the keyboard matrix.

I think this can be overcome. The SOC is the same as in the 20b and is well documented. Battery status works the same as for the WP 34S.

The display cannot be too complicated to understand. The controller is the same as in the 20b/30b and one has to find out about the segment mapping. The same holds for the keyboard matrix.

robert rozee · 02-10-2014, 05:11 AM

(02-07-2014 01:04 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:
(02-07-2014 10:03 AM)HP67 Wrote: What about Swissmicros? Anybody have experience with them?
The keyboard of my DM15CC is a nightmare. OTOH, the firmware seems to be bugfree with some extras. These guys should produce a replacement-PCB for the 15C LE.

i contacted them a few months back suggesting that they produce a 'full-sized' version as a retrofit. the reply was:
"
Re: PCB available as a retrofit to original housing
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your thoughts.
But I rather make a complete calculator in the original size with some added features...
Best regards,
Michael Steinmann
"

so there may be some hope, but not for a retrofit. might i suggest we start a petition asking that they consider a full-sized version complete 15C? i have a few ideas on how the mechanical engineering could be simplified, while still retaining the robustness and usability. really, most of us would be very happy with something the same size (or even a little bigger) than the original 15C.

rob :-)

Massimo Gnerucci · 02-10-2014, 07:50 AM

(02-10-2014 05:11 AM)robert rozee Wrote: so there may be some hope, but not for a retrofit. might i suggest we start a petition asking that they consider a full-sized version complete 15C? i have a few ideas on how the mechanical engineering could be simplified, while still retaining the robustness and usability. really, most of us would be very happy with something the same size (or even a little bigger) than the original 15C.

rob :-)

They were also working on a 41C clone based on the same hardware (as a start).
I'd much rather prefer a 41C than another 15C.

Thomas Radtke · 02-10-2014, 07:55 AM

(02-10-2014 05:11 AM)robert rozee Wrote: so there may be some hope, but not for a retrofit.

According to their initial webpages, a fullsize clone was their original idea until the plans for a 15C LE were unveiled. It was a very unlucky coincidence.

walter b · 02-10-2014, 09:19 AM

(02-10-2014 07:55 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote: According to their initial webpages, a fullsize clone was their original idea until the plans for a 15C LE were unveiled. It was a very unlucky coincidence.

Indeed.

d:-/

robert rozee · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2014 03:29 PM by robert rozee.)

(02-10-2014 07:55 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:
(02-10-2014 05:11 AM)robert rozee Wrote: so there may be some hope, but not for a retrofit.
According to their initial webpages, a fullsize clone was their original idea until the plans for a 15C LE were unveiled. It was a very unlucky coincidence.

and yet the 15C LE is a rather poor product as a 'collectable'. the software issues are quite minor when compared to mechanical and materials considerations. it is very unlikely that even a fraction of the 15C LE calculators made will still be functional in 10 years time, due to failure of the flexible conductive plastic cable between PCB and LCD, and also because of the use of lead-free solder in the construction. there will be nobody who buys a 15C LE at the beginning of their career and still has the same calculator operating at the end.

the materials in the cable decompose over time, leading to the ends detaching, while lead-free solder grows dendrils (long tin crystals), which eventually produce shorts between adjacent pads. these are both well known issues in the electronics industry.

a swiss-micro effort could, on the other hand, produce a 15C clone that would have a lifespan approaching that of the original 15C. however, it would require careful selection of materials and components. a good design would also allow for replacement of parts that fail.

rob :-)

Tugdual · 02-10-2014, 04:20 PM

(02-10-2014 11:52 AM)robert rozee Wrote:
(02-10-2014 07:55 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote: According to their initial webpages, a fullsize clone was their original idea until the plans for a 15C LE were unveiled. It was a very unlucky coincidence.
and yet the 15C LE is a rather poor product as a 'collectable'. the software issues are quite minor when compared to mechanical and materials considerations. it is very unlikely that even a fraction of the 15C LE calculators made will still be functional in 10 years time due to failure of the flexible conductive plastic cable between PCB and LCD, and also because of the use of lead-free solder in the construction. there will be no one who buys a 15C LE at the beginning of their career and still has the same calculator operating at the end.

the materials in the cable decompose over time, leading to the ends detaching. while lead-free solder grows dendrils (long tin crystals), which eventually produce shorts between adjacent pads. these are both well known issues in the electronics industry.

a swiss-micro effort could, on the other hand, produce a 15C clone that would have a lifespan approaching that of the original 15C, however it would require careful selection of materials and components. a good design would allow for replacement of parts that failed.

rob :-)

I kept (and still own) my original HP 15C for more than 20 years. I must have changed the batteries 2 or 3 times... and apart from a missing rubber pad it still looks good. But there is an issue with it: it looks like the rubber pad below the keys hardened to the point that I really have to heavily press the keys and sometime miss some strokes. This is the reason why I purchased the LE, this plus the amazing speed which brings comfort as you enter calculations: the screen doesn't blink or respond slowly like if the crystal was cold this makes a huge difference.
I’m a bit sad to read that you predict a soon failure of my LE. I just hope I’ll be able to repair it if this was to happen. A good calculator is a tool you have in your pocket (reasonably small and light), with keys (not a smartphone) by nature quick easy to use. I don’t think the Swiss design can compete with the LE keyboard reason why I would still prefer the first.

Steve Simpkin · 02-11-2014, 10:45 PM

I just bought an HP35S. It was too inexpensive to pass up an it is just too damn good looking not to have.... Kind of a trophy calculator Smile

Besides, contrary to my wife's opinion, there is always room for one more calculator....

By the way, HP no longer will send you a printed copy of the HP35S User's Guide for the HP35S. That was a limited time offer.

Craig Thomas · 02-12-2014, 01:57 AM

Out of all my 7 or 8 HP calculators, the 35S is the only one without batteries in it. To me, it is poorly organized and cumbersome to use. I also don't care for the display.

Just my opinion.

d b · 02-12-2014, 03:08 AM

(02-07-2014 10:03 AM)HP67 Wrote: What about Swissmicros? Anybody have experience with them?

I like my DM-15cc. The keyboard and display are as good as anything that size could be and It's nice to be able to put a calculator of that capacity in a watch pocket and not worry about it. I've never bothered to program it but since they weren't trying for an exact copy of the 15c like hp was, they gave us the choice of the standard, large, or truly huge memory. That would be good. I wouldn't want it to be my only RPN, but I'm glad to have one.
Mine has never made it to the glass display case. It sits within reach on my desk when it's not in a pocket.....or lost because it's SO small.

HP67 · 02-12-2014, 07:27 AM

(02-10-2014 11:52 AM)robert rozee Wrote: the software issues are quite minor when compared to mechanical and materials considerations. it is very unlikely that even a fraction of the 15C LE calculators made will still be functional in 10 years time, due to failure of the flexible conductive plastic cable between PCB and LCD, and also because of the use of lead-free solder in the construction. there will be nobody who buys a 15C LE at the beginning of their career and still has the same calculator operating at the end.

the materials in the cable decompose over time, leading to the ends detaching, while lead-free solder grows dendrils (long tin crystals), which eventually produce shorts between adjacent pads. these are both well known issues in the electronics industry.

I guess this means our 50g models are also destined to die horrible premature deaths? I read the other day about somebody buying an extra just in case they stop making them. I did the same. Now perhaps it won't help?