Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

walter b · 12-20-2015, 05:57 PM

The posts following this one http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=4742&pid=47751 don't show up anymore in the post list in threaded mode but on the heap (a.k.a. linear mode) only. If I observed this correctly, that error occurred as soon as ElectroDuende deleted his double posting of today - the list was perfectly ok and complete before. So it's not his fault but we should be grateful he helped isolating this error of the forum software.

I'm afraid this error known for long (cf. http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-2951.html) didn't disappear automatically. It didn't even help sending the messenger 'in vacation'. So after also this very well-tried measure failed, I'd suggest trying to isolate and repair the technical root cause. TIA

([:-I

Marcus von Cube · 12-20-2015, 07:07 PM

(12-20-2015 05:57 PM)walter b Wrote: The posts following this one http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=4742&pid=47751 don't show up anymore in the post list in threaded mode but on the heap (a.k.a. linear mode) only.

I'm pretty sure that the duplicate post has been deleted by a moderator because I reported it through the "REPORT" button with a "duplicate" remark. It's just best, not to reply directly to such a duplicate post because it is bound to be removed some time later which breaks threaded mode.

I concur that this is a glitch in the MyBB software. I'm using "heap" mode so I didn't take notice. There are chances that the bug will never be corrected, except by disabling threaded mode altogether.

TASP · 12-20-2015, 08:13 PM

We can't rub the server with cheetah blood or something ??

Wink

walter b · 12-21-2015, 01:23 PM

(12-20-2015 07:07 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote: I concur that this is a glitch in the MyBB software.

Let's help the SW guys. KISS. Assume each post contains a pointer pointing to the post it responds to.

If <New Reply> is chosen, the new post will point to post #1.
If <Quote> is chosen, the new post will point to the quoted post.

On the heap, all posts are simply sorted following their time of publication (ToP) - the pointer information is not used at all. In threaded mode, however, each post is filed behind the one it points to, and only the posts pointing to the same will be sorted following their ToP. Now, for sake of simplicity, assume 4 posts: #1 is the head of the thread, #2 responds to #1, and #3 and #4 respond to #2. What shall be done now if, for any reason whatsoever, post #2 will be deleted? Quite easy: before physically erasing #2, its pointer must be copied to all its descendants, so #3 and #4 contain pointers to #1 then; thereafter #2 may be erased and no structural information will vanish. Hope this model is simple enough and not too simple. Thanks in advance for implementing. Good grieve! Confused

d:-I

Bill (Smithville NJ) · 12-21-2015, 02:18 PM

(12-21-2015 01:23 PM)walter b Wrote:
(12-20-2015 07:07 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote: I concur that this is a glitch in the MyBB software.

Let's help the SW guys. KISS. Assume each post contains a pointer pointing to the post it responds to.

If <New Reply> is chosen, the new post will point to post #1.

If <Quote> is chosen, the new post will point to the quoted post.

On the heap, all posts are simply sorted following their time of publication (ToP) - the pointer information is not used at all. In threaded mode, however, each post is filed behind the one it points to, and only the posts pointing to the same will be sorted following their ToP. Now, for sake of simplicity, assume 4 posts: #1 is the head of the thread, #2 responds to #1, and #3 and #4 respond to #2. What shall be done now if, for any reason whatsoever, post #2 will be deleted? Quite easy: before physically erasing #2, its pointer must be copied to all its descendants, so #3 and #4 contain pointers to #1 then; thereafter #2 may be erased and no structural information will vanish. Hope this model is simple enough and not too simple. Thanks in advance for implementing. Good grieve!

d:-I

Walter,

Just curious as to who you are thanking "in advance for implementing". Is this Dave? Or the developers of MyBB?

Wouldn't it be better for you to post your suggested changes to the MyBB software to the MyBB site? I really doubt if the software developers of MyBB are reading this forum looking for suggested changes to their forum software. MyBB site is:

MyBB

Bill
Smithville, NJ

walter b · (This post was last modified: 12-21-2015 05:53 PM by walter b.)

Bill, we all use Dave's forum. Many of us used his old forum as well. With the switch from old to new forum he obviously decided to switch the underlying forum software. As a (admittedly frequent) user of his fora I don't really care who wrote his forum software and who maintains it, I even don't know how much he wrote (or customized) himself and how much other people did - I'd just like to see this SW working correctly in the background so we can focus on the contents. Since I don't know all that, I turn to him when I happen to find something strange or even a bug. He may forward my report to the people being responsible - he knows better than me who's that and can hence direct the information to the right people. That's the classical responsibility of a forum administrator, isn't it?

d:-?

d b · 12-21-2015, 06:09 PM

Walter;

I have a suggestion. You could find three or four members who are interested in this, Communicate your plans with PMs, and implement scenarios on the Test Forum. You can both delete your own posts and report them for moderators to delete, in case there is some difference in the software's reaction.

I realize this is a clunky way to troubleshoot a small problem but it's not our software. On that note; if you do zero it down to one cause, there is no guarantee that the developers will fix it fast, if at all. MyBB may or may not be like the 34s project where emece67 reports a bug and Marcus & Pauli fix it in an hour, as they did yesterday. Just be aware of that.

Also, what we perceive as a bug may be just an artefact of some other useful function. We've all ran into that one, sometimes for the good, often for the bad, and occasionally neutral so we learn to ignore it. -db

walter b · (This post was last modified: 01-03-2016 09:26 PM by d b.)

Hmmh, looks like a classical manager's response. I thought I had pointed you to this bug many months ago already. No big problem to demonstrate it on the test forum once more, however, FWIW. But don't you accuse me of deleting some posts again.
d:-/
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
<<BEGIN MODERATOR'S NOTE>>
RE, Walter's command to me:

(12-21-2015 06:19 PM)walter b Wrote: don't you accuse me of deleting some posts again.
d:-/

So, Walter, you don't delete your own posts? Not even the offensive ones to hide your bile? Like the last 29 of them?
You didn't delete a post in the "WP-32S in 2016?" thread at 2:20 PM Pacific Standard time on Jan 2nd 2016?
The one that began with "Good grief" and went on about your opinions of Bob Prosperi's IMAGINED-BY-YOU mental deficiencies?
The post that then continued with what's wrong with the States, our lack of education, and all the "internet cops" on this site?

You should stop accusing me of lying. You should stop trying to order me around on the internet from 5000 miles away. You should stop running your mouth about valued members of this community.
It just makes you look like what you are.
<<END MODERATOR'S NOTE>>
__________________________________
__________________________________

walter b · 12-21-2015, 06:37 PM

Here you go: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=5378&pid=47845 . Messages #1 through 5 were posted with #2 in response to #1, #3 and #4 in response to #2, and #5 in response to #3. Then #3 was deleted. See what's left now on the heap and in threaded mode.

HTH

d:-/

Bill (Smithville NJ) · (This post was last modified: 12-22-2015 01:24 AM by Bill (Smithville NJ).)

If I understand the problem correctly, the problem occurs when a message is deleted and the threaded mode then becomes corrupted.

One solution would be to not allow messages to be deleted. Or if they are deleted, then the delete mechanism should put a null message holder in its place. The holder could have a message that "This Message Deleted" or some other message. Then the thread would be preserved.

I seem to remember being on a forum where this was what happened.

Of course, I'm probably overlooking something really oblivious why this wouldn't work or not really understanding the problem.

Bill
Smithville, NJ

walter b · (This post was last modified: 12-22-2015 08:43 AM by walter b.)

(12-22-2015 01:24 AM)Bill (Smithville NJ) Wrote: ... the delete mechanism should put a null message holder in its place. The holder could have a message that "This Message Deleted" or some other message. Then the thread would be preserved.

I seem to remember being on a forum where this was what happened.

That's an even simpler solution than the one I suggested in post #4. I faintly remember having seen such a mechanism implemented on a US-administered forum, so this should fit.

d:-)

EdS2 · 12-22-2015, 09:55 AM

I thought it was established that only one forum member has threaded mode as their default. Anyone posting carefully in threaded mode and neglecting to quote the post they are responding to is lessening their voice - the great majority of users are not in threaded mode, and might not care to reverse-engineer which message is being replied to.

Removing threaded mode solves all this.

walter b · 12-22-2015, 10:05 AM

For the record, until December 2013 all forum members used threaded mode without exception. Then progress came and entropy grew. Confused

d:-I

ElectroDuende · (This post was last modified: 12-25-2015 01:43 AM by ElectroDuende.)

(12-20-2015 05:57 PM)walter b Wrote: The posts following this one http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=4742&pid=47751 don't show up anymore in the post list in threaded mode but on the heap (a.k.a. linear mode) only. If I observed this correctly, that error occurred as soon as ElectroDuende deleted his double posting of today - the list was perfectly ok and complete before. So it's not his fault but we should be grateful he helped isolating this error of the forum software.

I'm afraid this error known for long (cf. http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-2951.html) didn't disappear automatically. It didn't even help sending the messenger 'in vacation'. So after also this very well-tried measure failed, I'd suggest trying to isolate and repair the technical root cause. TIA

([:-I

Wow, what a mess I created! I didn't notice that my message was duplicatEd... In fact, when Walter pointed that to me, I tried to locate the double message, but could only find one! So, yes, I suppose that some moderator deleted it.

I'm pretty sure that the double posting was originated when going "page back" in my mobile phone internet browser from the page that shows after posting the message (seems to send message again).

Regarding the subsequent mess of messages, I think this is the reason why some forums based on the same platform don't allow the deletion of messages to the author, it us only possible to edit them (you can simply write "deleted for duplicated").

Kind regards

walter b · 01-01-2016, 02:51 PM

Well, looks like we're only four weeks away from the anniversary of the first black hole discovered on this forum. Let's trust firmly in the ability of the leading power of the western world, the masters of customer service orientation to show up with a proper solution for this annoying bug within twelve months.

d:-?

**Dave Hicks** · 01-01-2016, 07:27 PM

I don't believe that any of um… whoever it is… who develops myBB makes any claims to be a "power" of any sort and I have no idea if they classify themselves as even "western". They seem to have a fairly typical free software attitude, ie: if you like this stuff - great! If not - enjoy what you prefer!

Last year I used Thunderbird for about 10 months but it kept hanging on me (and sometimes losing data) at random times ranging from hours to weeks. I was hoping they would fix it "soonish" until I found a discussion from 2002 asking when they would finally fix this "long-standing bug". Nonetheless a lot of reviews/lists call Thunderbird one of the best email clients.

As mentioned before, last time I looked, we had one user who used the threaded mode by default. It didn't seem to get much attention when I brought this up on the myBB forum. In fact when I try to google around for it more broadly, I notice that outside of myBB forums, most of the links to threaded mode and bugs in threaded mode are from… this forum - which suggests that the percentage of threaded mode users is very small - quite likely well-below the radar for them.

So, they’ll fix it when they fix it… or not. As far as I know they do not read this forum. (Which might actually be good since some free SW developers don't respond well to pestering.)

From the HP forum point of view, I could remove the threaded view. But since we only had the one user, I didn't remove it because he could just not use it if he doesn't like it. I also considered removing the delete feature but since users of delete greatly outnumber users of the threaded mode, this didn’t seem wise.

d b · 01-01-2016, 08:30 PM

(01-01-2016 07:27 PM)Dave Hicks Wrote: I don't believe that any of um… whoever it is… who develops myBB makes any claims to be a "power" of any sort and I have no idea if they classify themselves as even "western". They seem to have a fairly typical free software attitude, ie: if you like this stuff - great! If not - enjoy what you prefer!

Last year I used Thunderbird for about 10 months but it kept hanging on me (and sometimes losing data) at random times ranging from hours to weeks. I was hoping they would fix it "soonish" until I found a discussion from 2002 asking when they would finally fix this "long-standing bug". Nonetheless a lot of reviews/lists call Thunderbird one of the best email clients.

As mentioned before, last time I looked, we had one user who used the threaded mode by default. It didn't seem to get much attention when I brought this up on the myBB forum. In fact when I try to google around for it more broadly, I notice that outside of myBB forums, most of the links to threaded mode and bugs in threaded mode are from… this forum - which suggests that the percentage of threaded mode users is very small - quite likely well-below the radar for them.

So, they’ll fix it when they fix it… or not. As far as I know they do not read this forum. (Which might actually be good since some free SW developers don't respond well to pestering.)

From the HP forum point of view, I could remove the threaded view. But since we only had the one user, I didn't remove it because he could just not use it if he doesn't like it. I also considered removing the delete feature but since users of delete greatly outnumber users of the threaded mode, this didn’t seem wise.

Dave;
You explained that well. My only 2 cents would be: If I were the only one out of 3700 user/members that prefer one feature over another, I wouldn't be lobbying to erase or change the other 3699 people's choice. I'd just be happy that I had the option to use the setting that I like too.
Well, that's not completely correct. I have been known to take out an RPN calculator and show people "look how easy this is without parentheses and an equals key". -db

Bill (Smithville NJ) · (This post was last modified: 01-03-2016 02:57 AM by Bill (Smithville NJ).)

My Summary:

This will most likely NOT get fixed. Not now or in 12 months or most likely ever.

Walter - you should learn to live with it. Continued griping will most likely NOT result in a solution - other that any satisfaction that you may receive from doing the griping.

Dave has already expressed his feelings on this and that he does not plan on making any changes to this.

As I have said before, you should be talking directly with the developers of the software. You should make your suggested changes directly to them. They are the people who can come up with a solution and post a revision to the software. If they wish to. Only then might you have satisfaction. But I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

In my opinion, Case Closed.

Bill
Smithville, NJ

walter b · 01-03-2016, 10:14 AM

(01-03-2016 02:43 AM)Bill (Smithville NJ) Wrote: Walter - you should learn to live with it. Continued griping will most likely NOT result in a solution - other that any satisfaction that you may receive from doing the griping.

I learn new expressions here every once and a while. So far, I didn't know that persistently reminding of an obvious bug is called griping. Two easy solutions were even offered for free for your (plural) consideration. Anyway, I understood that you (the last three posters) don't care about a bug-free forum. Well ...

d:-/

Gerald H · (This post was last modified: 01-03-2016 11:16 AM by Gerald H.)

I can't speak for other posters, but I'm certainly not interested in a "bug-free forum".

For me the Forum works well enough, I enjoy it (mostly), just as I enjoy the 49G, 35S & WP 34S - all have bugs, the only one open to influence is the WP 34S & I trust work will continue to reduce its bugs.

As for the others, I'll apply the Swahili proverb "The ferry is rotten", ie the ferry is truly rotten, but it's still the ferry & good enough to get you to the other side.