WTT: HP 85 Assembler ROM 00085-15007

[Michael Fehlhammer]

I offer the HP 85 Assembler ROM along with the original 5,25 inch disk and cassette ( cassette obviously unused, still sealed ), but no original manual ( manual as pdf file is available).
Acceptable items for trading: HP 87 Assembler ROM ( preferred),
HP 87 EDISK ROM, MIKSAM ROM, 128k RAM,
or a rare ROM or EPROM incl. documentation for the HP Portable Plus,
or software or hardware for the HP 9000 200/300 series computers.
HP-IB or HP-IL devices or HP 41/71/75 ROMs might also be of interest.
Please send a PM.

[Dave Frederickson]

Hi Michael,

John Shadbolt has recently built a new batch of PRM-85 boards which gets you 8 ROM's for 110 euros.

Dave

[rprosperi]

(02-05-2016 12:59 AM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  John Shadbolt has recently built a new batch of

And they are very nice indeed. In case you have not looked, there is an HP-87 version of the SuperROM, which includes:

Adv Programming ROM 1 & 2
Assembler ROM
Matrix ROM 1 & 2
I/O ROM
Extended Mass Storage ROM
Plotter ROM

(in truth, you can only use 7 of the above 8, but still, it's much cheaper than physical ROMs.)

[Michael Fehlhammer]

(02-05-2016 01:36 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(02-05-2016 12:59 AM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  John Shadbolt has recently built a new batch of

And they are very nice indeed. In case you have not looked, there is an HP-87 version of the SuperROM, which includes:

Adv Programming ROM 1 & 2
Assembler ROM
Matrix ROM 1 & 2
I/O ROM
Extended Mass Storage ROM
Plotter ROM

(in truth, you can only use 7 of the above 8, but still, it's much cheaper than physical ROMs.)

Yes, thanks for the hint, I know about PRM-85.
In fact a year ago I initiated the modification of PRM-85 to match the needs of HP-86/87 users better, i.e. the preprogrammed ROM codes were adjusted.
My custom "PRM-87" hosts 10 ROM images ( 8 plus 2 in a second EPROM with individually configured ROM codes via the DIP switches).
I wonder why only 7 of 8 ROM images can be used in the PRM-87 that officially is for sale now?

I only collect HP 86/87 items, no one here who needs the HP 85 module?

I just realize that I can offer also a HP 98151a Rev. B Program Development ROM!

[Paul Berger (Canada)]

(02-05-2016 10:10 AM)Michael Fehlhammer Wrote:  

(02-05-2016 01:36 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  And they are very nice indeed. In case you have not looked, there is an HP-87 version of the SuperROM, which includes:

Adv Programming ROM 1 & 2
Assembler ROM
Matrix ROM 1 & 2
I/O ROM
Extended Mass Storage ROM
Plotter ROM

(in truth, you can only use 7 of the above 8, but still, it's much cheaper than physical ROMs.)

Yes, thanks for the hint, I know about PRM-85.
In fact a year ago I initiated the modification of PRM-85 to match the needs of HP-86/87 users better, i.e. the preprogrammed ROM codes were adjusted.
My custom "PRM-87" hosts 10 ROM images ( 8 plus 2 in a second EPROM with individually configured ROM codes via the DIP switches).
I wonder why only 7 of 8 ROM images can be used in the PRM-87 that officially is for sale now?

I only collect HP 86/87 items, no one here who needs the HP 85 module?

I just realize that I can offer also a HP 98151a Rev. B Program Development ROM!

It would seem that the cards are being distributed with the preprogrammed select codes in the PLD aimed at 85 users, and the "SuperROM" provided does not match up with three of these codes, in fact only one of them is much use to 86/87 users and that is the service ROM, which is not in the received "SuperROM" image. The select code for the Mass Storage ROM is of little use as the mass storage ROM is built into 86/87 systems, and there is no 86/87 equivalent to the Program Development ROM. So the only option is to use the switches to enable 2 of the 3 images, which degrades the usefulness of the card. I am guessing that you "Custom PRM-87" has a custom programmed CPLD with a different set of preprogrammed select codes, if that is the case it would make me wonder why the seller does not make that available as an option to current buyers. I also don't understand why the service ROM would be part of the default set, it would seem to me that it would be an infrequently used ROM and could be burned into a single image ROM and installed in the second socket when needed.

I am not a PRM-85 owner all of the above is based on what I read in the manual for it, when I needed ROMs for my 85A and later 86A I designed and built my own card.

Paul.

[rprosperi]

(02-05-2016 10:10 AM)Michael Fehlhammer Wrote:  I wonder why only 7 of 8 ROM images can be used in the PRM-87 that officially is for sale now?

The default 5 ROMs for the 87 SuperROM match those of the 85 core set. The APR-2, Matrix-2 and Plotter ROM are "extra" and one can enable any 2 of these 3 via the 2 Dip Switches and jumpers. The "limit" is simply due to the fact that there are only 2 Dip switches.

I've just learned though that in order to use the APROM or Matrix ROM, you need both ROMs 1&2 enabled. Though I've read in various places that the 87 versions have more functions, it appears the 87 versions of these ROMs are just about the same as the 85 versions, but the code size for the 87 version (perhaps due to the different addressing?) exceeded the 8KB in the originals, so they "overflowed" into a 2nd ROM.

(02-05-2016 01:10 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  It would seem that the cards are being distributed with the preprogrammed select codes in the PLD aimed at 85 users, and the "SuperROM" provided does not match up with three of these codes, in fact only one of them is much use to 86/87 users and that is the service ROM, which is not in the received "SuperROM" image. The select code for the Mass Storage ROM is of little use as the mass storage ROM is built into 86/87 systems, and there is no 86/87 equivalent to the Program Development ROM. So the only option is to use the switches to enable 2 of the 3 images, which degrades the usefulness of the card. I am guessing that you "Custom PRM-87" has a custom programmed CPLD with a different set of preprogrammed select codes, if that is the case it would make me wonder why the seller does not make that available as an option to current buyers. I also don't understand why the service ROM would be part of the default set, it would seem to me that it would be an infrequently used ROM and could be burned into a single image ROM and installed in the second socket when needed.

Indeed the MS ROM, PD ROM and Svc ROM (defaults in the 85 flavor) do not apply to the 87, hence the other 3 "extras" are available via user-selected ROM IDs.

It's not perfect, bur for those of us mere mortals that cannot design and build out own ROM boards, it is a great solution that works. I'm happy to be able to have the features of these ROMs without spending a fortune and years searching.

I'm also glad to know from Michael's notes that more than 1 ROM image could be installed in an EPROM in the available slot. The 2 custom System Extension ROMs on Everett Kaser's site look very useful, and if both can be added in an EPROM, it means I would not have to choose which one is best.

[Michael Fehlhammer]

(02-05-2016 01:10 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  I am guessing that you "Custom PRM-87" has a custom programmed CPLD with a different set of preprogrammed select codes, if that is the case it would make me wonder why the seller does not make that available as an option to current buyers.

You guessed perfectly right, Paul.
Bill Kotaska programmed a custom CPLD, and I made my own SUPERROM ( ROM images are available online, you just need an EPROM programmer and a 27C512 EPROM (512 kBit = 64 kByte) that hosts 8 ROM modules ( 8 KByte each ).

My configuration looks like this:

Contact# ROM Address ROM Name
---------- ------------ --------------------
17 232 (E8 Hex) Advanced Programming
18 240 (F0 Hex) Printer/Plotter
19 177 (B1 Hex) Matrix II
20 56 (38 Hex) SYSEXT
21 231 (E7 Hex) Advanced Programming II
22 176 (B0 Hex) Matrix
23 192 (C0 Hex) Input/Output
24 207 (CF Hex) Extended Mass Storage

Since there is a socket for a second EPROM and two DIP switches for ROM addresses, I can use two more ROMs - Assembler and MIKSAM, for example.
So I need only one PRM-85 occupying just one slot to provide 10 ROMs!
Well, admitted, I counted Matrix I and II as two ROMs, same with Adv.Prog I and II. By the way, I think that Bob is right and there is no additional functionality in these double-ROMs, compared to the HP 85- single-ROM versions.

I did suggest to Bill and John that they should offer my custom CPLD along with a suitable SUPERROM to customers who want to use PRM-85 in their HP 86/87 machines, as would seem natural naming it PRM-87, since this obviously would be a big improvement at practically no additional costs. Obviously they forgot about it. I guess they personally use HP 85 machines only.

My tip for HP 86/87 owners who already got their PRM-85:
Ask Bill if he sells the custom CPLD ( which he made for me ) separately.
I am pretty sure he will, for little money. Since the CPLD is in a socket, it is (relatively) easy to replace. I can provide an image of my SUPERROM.
Then you just have to burn that image into a standard EPROM, or find someone who does that. Should not be that difficult. That's all to be done to get your own PRM-87.
If several HP-87 users ask for this modification, Bill and John certainly will offer a complete PRM-87 in future.

Well, by the way, for a perfect solution you might want to integrate your PRM into a nice housing; then you have to slaughter an HP-IB interface module, for example ( I did that ). Or does anyone here sell HP series 80 module cases? :-)

[rprosperi]

(02-06-2016 12:50 AM)Michael Fehlhammer Wrote:  You guessed perfectly right, Paul.
Bill Kotaska programmed a custom CPLD, and I made my own SUPERROM ( ROM images are available online, you just need an EPROM programmer and a 27C512 EPROM (512 kBit = 64 kByte) that hosts 8 ROM modules ( 8 KByte each ).

My configuration looks like this:

Contact# ROM Address ROM Name
---------- ------------ --------------------
17 232 (E8 Hex) Advanced Programming
18 240 (F0 Hex) Printer/Plotter
19 177 (B1 Hex) Matrix II
20 56 (38 Hex) SYSEXT
21 231 (E7 Hex) Advanced Programming II
22 176 (B0 Hex) Matrix
23 192 (C0 Hex) Input/Output
24 207 (CF Hex) Extended Mass Storage

...

Thanks for clarifying Michael, I was wondering about many of these points which your notes make clear.

Which SYSEXT ROM are you using, Everett Kaser's or Andre Koppel's ? Both have desirable features and I've been wondering which one to add into my PRM-85 (-87).

I will contact Bill to explore creating a custom version.

For my 87XM, my ideal configuration includes:

I/O ROM
EMS ROM
Adv Prog ROM-1/2
Koppel's SYSEXT ROM
Kaser's SYSEXT ROM
Assembler ROM
FORTH ROM

If I really want to do Matrices, there are better tools, I will never Plot and Printer ROM is built-in.

I don't honestly know if the above is even possible; it's sort of a hacker's delight rather than a "normal" configuration.

I'll let you know where this goes...

[Michael Fehlhammer]

I use Andre Koppel's SYSEXT ROM, I think it features even more useful commands, and I like its comprehensive manual. But it might be a good idea to have both extended ROMs plugged in.
Concerning your custom version, I can't see a reason why Bill shouldn't build it; he just would have to change a few ROM codes, certainly an easy task.
Please let us know about the outcome of your inquiry.

[rprosperi]

(02-07-2016 02:36 PM)Michael Fehlhammer Wrote:  I use Andre Koppel's SYSEXT ROM, I think it features even more useful commands, and I like its comprehensive manual. But it might be a good idea to have both extended ROMs plugged in.
Concerning your custom version, I can't see a reason why Bill shouldn't build it; he just would have to change a few ROM codes, certainly an easy task.
Please let us know about the outcome of your inquiry.

Is there an English version of the manual, I read somewhere this is only available in German? Everett has provided some brief notes from Andre with a list of the function names and arguments; some of them are obvious, others less so. All the same, it appears quite useful with a wide variety of functions.

I will let you know how it turns out. Thanks for help.

[Michael Fehlhammer]

(02-07-2016 03:04 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Is there an English version of the manual, I read somewhere this is only available in German? Everett has provided some brief notes from Andre with a list of the function names and arguments; some of them are obvious, others less so.

Sorry Bob, I have got the German manual only and don't know if an English version even exists. Never thought about that, since the German manual is fine for me.

[Michael Fehlhammer]

Due to very low interest here, I will cancel this offer within 24 hours from now - and then offer the ROM & accessories on TAS.