DM32

[Dave Britten]

This was brought to my attention via Reddit and the SM forums.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqKYVa3lH6c

Looks very interesting. If it's essentially a 32SII that lets you hot-swap between RAM images on the fly (my speculation), then I'm sold.

[Steve Simpkin]

Very cool! If it is uses HP-32SII emulation, I wonder how they got around the copyright on the original code?

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(05-06-2022 08:04 PM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  Very cool! If it is uses HP-32SII emulation, I wonder how they got around the copyright on the original code?

Quote:Michael » 06 May 2022 17:34

Thomas Okken wrote: ↑06 May 2022 13:26
So that's why they needed Saturn emulation, then...
The HP32Sii ROM is copyright protected, hence no emulation

[Vincent Weber]

That's strange on several counts.

First, yes, the 32SII rom, like all pionneers, is copyrighted, so emulation is out of question. And simulation is a lot of work to get it right (see Free42/Plus42, almost 20 years of development), I doubt Swiss micro did that...

Then, this is a poor man's choice. I take Plus42 any time over a 32SII clone. Save for a fraction mode that I find quite useless personally, the 32SII has nothing to offer that Plus42 is not doing way better...

Wait and see, but I don't get it.

[level7]

(05-07-2022 10:24 AM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Then, this is a poor man's choice. I take Plus42 any time over a 32SII clone. Save for a fraction mode that I find quite useless personally, the 32SII has nothing to offer that Plus42 is not doing way better...

Not everyone necessarily needs the most powerful calculator every time Sure the Plus42 is awesome but I still like to use my 12C.

Michael explained in the video last year:
"entry level"
"direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxT3nF_A0bU

[Luigi Vampa]

That DM32 looks really nice to me, but Free42 turned me into a 42 fanboy, so I will keep on dreaming of an HP-42s replica (no need of a bigger screen and an additional row of buttons).

[Vincent Weber]

(05-08-2022 07:51 AM)level7 Wrote:  

(05-07-2022 10:24 AM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Then, this is a poor man's choice. I take Plus42 any time over a 32SII clone. Save for a fraction mode that I find quite useless personally, the 32SII has nothing to offer that Plus42 is not doing way better...

Not everyone necessarily needs the most powerful calculator every time Sure the Plus42 is awesome but I still like to use my 12C.

Michael explained in the video last year:
"entry level"
"direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxT3nF_A0bU

I would agree with that... When you compare 2 calculators in totally different leagues. Sure, the 48 is overall way more powerful than the 42, but this power comes with a hefty price: much more complex to use, much heavier, much bulkier...
The 32 and 42 have similar weight, size, and complexity. Sure, there are more menus in the 42 than in the 32SII (which still has menus !), but the difference is much smaller than between the 48 and the 42. Plus42 additional row adds most of the day-to-day functions that are directly available on the 32SII (%CH, X<>, RUP,...). I don't miss anything from the 32SII now. Maybe just the fraction mode, but this quite a small detail to me...

[andylithia]

wait... I thought the 32SII ROM code has never been extracted.

32SII is my personal favorite. I literally grew up with it (got mine in my middle school). If Swissmicro is able to replicate its functionality I'd definitely go for it.
But I don't think it fits the DM42 platform: the machine is meant to be simple and responsive. Why not make a 32SII in the DM15 form factor?

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(05-08-2022 11:37 PM)andylithia Wrote:  wait... I thought the 32SII ROM code has never been extracted.

Wrong.

(05-08-2022 11:37 PM)andylithia Wrote:  But I don't think it fits the DM42 platform: the machine is meant to be simple and responsive. Why not make a 32SII in the DM15 form factor?

Why ruining another perfectly working portrait calculator?

[ijabbott]

(05-08-2022 11:37 PM)andylithia Wrote:  wait... I thought the 32SII ROM code has never been extracted.

Look for the latest addition at Pictures at an exhibition of essentials.

Quote:But I don't think it fits the DM42 platform: the machine is meant to be simple and responsive. Why not make a 32SII in the DM15 form factor?

I was kind of expecting them to use a new, cheaper variant of the DM42 hardware, keeping the portrait form factor but losing the large display.

[Steve Simpkin]

(05-09-2022 06:46 AM)ijabbott Wrote:  

(05-08-2022 11:37 PM)andylithia Wrote:  wait... I thought the 32SII ROM code has never been extracted.

Look for the latest addition at Pictures at an exhibition of essentials.

Quote:But I don't think it fits the DM42 platform: the machine is meant to be simple and responsive. Why not make a 32SII in the DM15 form factor?

I was kind of expecting them to use a new, cheaper variant of the DM42 hardware, keeping the portrait form factor but losing the large display.

While using a smaller display might reduce the per unit cost, I suspect it was much cheaper to use an existing design than to create a new one that required new tooling for the case, would require additional testing and used new parts that would have to be stocked along with the existing ones.

[Dave Britten]

And they could knock some of the costs off the BOM in other ways. For instance, a 32 doesn't need a beeper or IR LED. No clue if they're leaving those parts out, but it's an option.

[Marco Polo]

(05-07-2022 10:24 AM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  First, yes, the 32SII rom, like all pionneers, is copyrighted, so emulation is out of question. And simulation is a lot of work to get it right (see Free42/Plus42, almost 20 years of development), I doubt Swiss micro did that...

And, in case, why not to emulate the 35s correcting the bugs found during years?
The 35s keyboard layout seems better to me (few keystrokes to solve an existing equation, for example; it could be adapted to DM42 keyboard), no need to emulate Saturn (and hence more memory)

Quote:Then, this is a poor man's choice. I take Plus42 any time over a 32SII clone. Save for a fraction mode that I find quite useless personally, the 32SII has nothing to offer that Plus42 is not doing way better...

Totally agree

[andylithia]

(05-09-2022 12:10 PM)Marco Polo Wrote:  The 35s keyboard layout seems better to me (few keystrokes to solve an existing equation, for example; it could be adapted to DM42 keyboard), no need to emulate Saturn (and hence more memory)

I remember the 35s keyboard being quite awkward to use. The base conversion is unusable, and the STO key being a secondary function is killing me. The 35s display is also quite difficult to read compared to that of the 32sii.
IMO the only improvement of 35s over the 32sii is the larger program RAM, which may finally take off on the DM32 with the introduction of a link port.

[Thomas Okken]

(05-09-2022 12:10 PM)Marco Polo Wrote:  no need to emulate Saturn

The whole Saturn emulation thing sounds like a red herring... I guess it never made much sense because you wouldn't be able to run anything on it, not legally anyway, and if you're writing original code, you want to do it in C or C++, not in Saturn assembly language...

[Steve Simpkin]

(05-09-2022 04:21 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 12:10 PM)Marco Polo Wrote:  no need to emulate Saturn

The whole Saturn emulation thing sounds like a red herring... I guess it never made much sense because you wouldn't be able to run anything on it, not legally anyway, and if you're writing original code, you want to do it in C or C++, not in Saturn assembly language...

Thomas, agreed.
I asked the following question on the comment section of SwissMicros YouTube video preview of the DM32. Michael’s answer follows it.

“I wonder if they are using Saturn CPU emulation with the original HP-32SII code or a complete rewrite to simulate it (like Free42 and the DM42)?
One issue with emulation is that the original HP-32SII code is copyrighted.”

Michael Steinmann
1 day ago
“Having an armada of HP lawyers hunting us down was the second-best option.”

[Dave Britten]

(05-09-2022 04:21 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 12:10 PM)Marco Polo Wrote:  no need to emulate Saturn

The whole Saturn emulation thing sounds like a red herring... I guess it never made much sense because you wouldn't be able to run anything on it, not legally anyway, and if you're writing original code, you want to do it in C or C++, not in Saturn assembly language...

And possibly not even a red herring - it could have been something they were considering early on, but they quickly moved in a different direction after initial research.

I like the idea of a "Free32*" more than just emulating the original hardware, so hopefully that's what this all means.

(* Likely not free here, but you get the idea.)

[jonmoore]

(05-09-2022 06:46 AM)ijabbott Wrote:  Look for the latest addition at Pictures at an exhibition of essentials.

It's always good to have a tour guide when visiting exhibitions.

https://hexed.it/

This may help one to solve the puzzle...

[jonmoore]

The 32S family of calculators (inc. i and ii) were created as affordable student calculators. The story's the same with the much-maligned HP-35s - which ironically, is the HP calculator that's second only to the 12c in terms of the number of years it's been in production.

The fact that these calculators minimise menu diving is a secondary benefit, and one that I value highly from a UX perspective. Pairing this with all the benefits of the DM42 hardware will be compelling for some. But not if it's marketed at a price point that's in the same ballpark as the DM42/DM41x.

If SM market the DM32 strictly to HP loyalists/collectors, I can't see this model being a commercial success. But if it's priced closer to their other Voyager emulations, it could appeal to a wider audience. If it's to mirror Hewlett Packard's positioning of HP 32s family, it should be priced lower than the 15L but considering the range of benefits that the DM42 hardware realises, a premium is justified (but within reason).

The HP-35s, even with its edge-case bugs (not counting the checksum issue, that' definitely a major bug IMO), is perfectly positioned. It's priced at circa $50, and it improves on the 32s in many ways, particularly its equation solver, which can e.g. be programmed to contain a healthy chunk of the 48 equation library. One enterprising chap/opportunist has marketed this very thing for lazy students taking various engineering exams.

https://www.engineeringexamtools.com/pro...lculators/

For any wondering how this is possible, considering the limitations of programming labels in the 35s, the trick is to create alpha labels as null equations positioned beside the actual equations. Considering the (relatively) healthy RAM in the 32s, there's plenty of storage space for these null alpha-equations too

There are still plenty of 35s's in the marketplace, even though HP finally stopped manufacturing last year. Outside of HP collectors, I think it would be reasonable to say that the main competitor to the DM32 will be the HP-35s. And that's ruling out the healthy number of 32s/ii's that are still being traded on eBay for circa $80-90 (I know some opportunists ask more but average sale prices are lower).

Personally speaking, I prefer a clean faceplate ala the DM42/41x, coupled with alpha-entry for extended functions, so I probably won't be picking up a DM32 (I could be tempted if it's priced circa the DM15L, especially if it comes pre-loaded with the 48 equation library!). But seeing as I already own a 32s ii (which I rarely use), the DM32 was always going to be something of a curiosity for me.

[Vincent Weber]

Plus42 took the best from the 27S (powerful equations, TVM) and the 32SII (equations available in RPN programs, named access to statistics registers, unit conversions in a much more powerful fashion), but also from the 35S:

1) Stack registers access (read-only) in equations;
2) Complex numbers in equations;
3) Lists, so that you can access a collection of vectors with indirect access in equations;

It did not take the checksum feature - this is only useful when you type programs manually. When you have program import, that's of no importance

I just wish it could also take from the 35S the one-line complex number entry and maybe the fraction mode, for what it is worth... Maybe in future releases.