Beware not to buy HP Prime, if you are engineer!

[dmmaster]

Hello,

The HP Prime is very famous. There are really a lot of information on internet about it.

Got one, and well, after hours and hours of testing, please find herewith a note for students. I find it important if you would like to buy a calc for your studies.

The HP Prime is a good calc, more or less similar to high-end Casio or TI graphical calc. The HP Prime is rather ok for studying, but it will not be ok for engineers.

If you would like to push further and have it for several years, you must consider the HP49G or HP50G certainly.

I read on the web that the HP PRIME is an expensive toy, and I would like to confirm it. It is indeed a very expensive toy.

The HP50G is really adapted for biology, chemistry, computer sciences, engineering, as well geometry, mathematics, physics, surveying, weather sciences, trigonometry, statistics, thermodynamics, and many more.
With the HP50G, you are really serious with your studies.

[toml_12953]

(05-04-2018 10:07 PM)dmmaster Wrote:  The HP Prime is a good calc, more or less similar to high-end Casio or TI graphical calc. The HP Prime is rather ok for studying, but it will not be ok for engineers.

If you would like to push further and have it for several years, you must consider the HP49G or HP50G certainly.

You make assertions but don't back them up with facts. Why isn't the Prime suitable for engineers?

[dmmaster]

(05-04-2018 10:24 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 10:07 PM)dmmaster Wrote:  The HP Prime is a good calc, more or less similar to high-end Casio or TI graphical calc. The HP Prime is rather ok for studying, but it will not be ok for engineers.

If you would like to push further and have it for several years, you must consider the HP49G or HP50G certainly.

You make assertions but don't back them up with facts. Why isn't the Prime suitable for engineers?

Because of experience, studies, and my expertise.
It is just a point of view like another one. Feel free to buy an HP Prime of course, without considering it.

The HP Prime is good for high school and more. For Bachelor and master, it is more or less fine, sufficiently good of course.

Major reasons are functionalities, features, system (although CAS is more advance on HP Prime) which are considered,... It is important to have an efficient machine with numerous features, functionalities,... rather than a shinny windowing and user interface. There are of course cool apps on HP Prime, but it won't replace all the features, system and tools of the HP50G graphical calc. Let's say that you can't do half of what you can with HP50G.

Considering serious studies (fields biology, chemistry, computer sciences, engineering, as well geometry, mathematics, physics, surveying, weather sciences, trigonometry, statistics).

Naturally, feel free of choice.

[pier4r]

The prime is a very nice math environment. If one is an engineer and can type formulas the system is good enough.

Also is not really scientific (and therefore out of the realm of engineering) to sell a subjective point of view, as it is mine above or the one from the OP, as a fact.

If one wants to be a bit more serious one should define what a calculator should do for an engineer, then finding consensus on the definition. Given the definition then one can proceed to see if a calculator is fitting or not.

[Carsen]

I have to disagree with you about the statistics. Without programming, the HP Prime is far superior with statistics than my 50g.

Also, I don't see why weather sciences and biology is useful for engineering. Could you explain?

If 3D graphing is used in engineering, then the Prime seems to excel there. Just some thoughts.

[dmmaster]

(05-04-2018 10:43 PM)Carsen Wrote:  I have to disagree with you about the statistics. Without programming, the HP Prime is far superior with statistics than my 50g.

Also, I don't see why weather sciences and biology is useful for engineering. Could you explain?

If 3D graphing is used in engineering, then the Prime seems to excel there. Just some thoughts.

The CAS is better on HP-Prime, some statistics are better, surely. Solving on HP Prime is better. From early hp, interests have slightly changed.
Years passed, it is natural. Year 2013. Luckily, that there is progress.

But, HP did drop many features. They visibly targeted another public: secondary school.
3d graphics, complex, geometry,... simple interface to use. Less functionalities for maths. HP did drop physics too visibly. Electrical engineering? What about fluids/rheology? And more...

[Cliff Stamp]

Why is the Prime the inferior choice - what specifically is inferior about it?

[hewlpac]

Calculators such as the Prime are primarily for educational use. Engineering analysis of any significant complexity requires much more power an uses from finite element type analysis, DOE or mixture modeling, etc. Those tools require powerful computers... more power the better for speed and capability. Though the 48 - 50G series are nice in their day the prime can do much more ... just apply the appropriate engineering models for educational analysis (or fun if you enjoy it!)

[toml_12953]

(05-04-2018 10:32 PM)dmmaster Wrote:  

(05-04-2018 10:24 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  You make assertions but don't back them up with facts. Why isn't the Prime suitable for engineers?

Because of experience, studies, and my expertise.

(05-04-2018 10:24 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  We have no idea what your bona fides are.

Major reasons are functionalities, features, system (although CAS is more advance on HP Prime) which are considered
Let's say that you can't do half of what you can with HP50G.

(05-04-2018 10:24 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  Give examples of the functionalities, features and system, and, of course, limitations of the Prime, etc. Without those we won't take your word for anything.

Considering serious studies (fields biology, chemistry, computer sciences, engineering, as well geometry, mathematics, physics, surveying, weather sciences, trigonometry, statistics).

(05-04-2018 10:24 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  What about them?

Naturally, feel free of choice.

(05-04-2018 10:24 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  That's the only thing you've said that can't be refuted!

[compsystems]

in the hpprime calc with respect to hp50, we still can not create directories within directories, in addition to libraries that allow you to better organize functions and call functions between, also print in prettyprint (2D), and execute in "layers"

[toml_12953]

(05-04-2018 11:57 PM)compsystems Wrote:  in the hpprime calc with respect to hp50, we still can not create directories within directories, in addition to libraries that allow you to better organize functions and call functions between, also print in prettyprint (2D), and execute in "layers"

OK. All good reasons! BTW I happen to agree with the OP which is why I'd like to see his statements supported by actual reasons. I was a teacher of Boolean logic too long, I guess. Nothing is accepted as fact without proof. Of course my name is Thomas, after all!

[Graham D. Wilson]

(05-05-2018 04:06 AM)emersone12 Wrote:  The Prime's system is also a work in progress but the Prime should have been made as a customisable development platform just like the re-configurable HP30B/HP20B was able to be customized & developed by the communty into the successful work of art, the WP-34s.

Exactly^^

I would love the Prime to be an open system, but suspect that would invalidate its use in education. I also would love to see the Prime turned into an RPL machine. The Prime's internal software system is nowhere near as elegant as the 48/49/50 series recursive stack/object design.

The Prime is HP's most powerful calculator. My Prime Home screen is permanently on RPN and I love being able to use the Prime's RPN interface for exploration, just as Bill Wickes described this power of RPN when he introduced the HP28S in his book.
The Prime's keyboard layout is simple and elegant, and reminds me of the 28S, which I really like. But the software interface is inelegant and cludgy: e.g. I'm amazed that after five years the Prime's soft keys aren't yet customisable. Why not?

[dmmaster]

Need time.

(05-05-2018 05:22 AM)Graham D. Wilson Wrote:  

(05-05-2018 04:06 AM)emersone12 Wrote:  The Prime's system is also a work in progress but the Prime should have been made as a customisable development platform just like the re-configurable HP30B/HP20B was able to be customized & developed by the communty into the successful work of art, the WP-34s.

Exactly^^

I would love the Prime to be an open system, but suspect that would invalidate it's use in education. I also would love to see the Prime turned into an RPL machine. The Prime's internal software system is nowhere near as elegant as the 48/49/50 series recursive stack/object design.

The Prime is HP's most powerful calculator. My Prime Home screen is permanently on RPN and I love being able to use the Prime's RPN interface for exploration, just as Bill Wickes described this power of RPN when he introduced the HP28S in his book.
The Prime's keyboard layout is simple and elegant, and reminds me of the 28S, which I really like. But the software interface is inelegant and cludgy: e.g. I'm amazed that after five years the Prime's soft keys aren't yet customisable. Why not?

Exactly^^^^^^

However, not so sure if the HP Prime has got the best keyboard layout ever of all time (HP graphical calcs)...
Fx (F1...F6) keys would be still very useful.
The touch screen is elegant. What about the hp48g? This was really designed.
Ideal for maths, symbolic, and physics.

[dmmaster]

Simple. You cannot do serious mathematics with the HP Prime.

The HP Prime is 100x faster than HP50G. It is a big power in the hand, however the software is a complete return to the past and ideally made to make concurrence with Casio and TI. But this is another type of customers.

There are many many reasons. There are many drawbacks with the HP-Prime, compared to the previous HP model. Here an example:
https://www.thecalculatorstore.com/Calcu...e-HP-Prime
https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Calculator...-p/5812349

Many more points can be given easily.

[pier4r]

Yes but no one stops you to create an equation library for the prime (and share it).

It seems to me that your point is "I want something ready made, for this the 50g with built in or community programs covers more needs than the prime, without me defining this or that equation".

But that's a lazy argument in my view. If I need something, I check if it is already done, otherwise I do it. Maybe long algorithms can be an obstacle, but equations are easy.

Pick this for example: https://www.easycalculation.com/formulas/index.php
There may be hundreds of equations there. But it is unlikely that one needs all of them at once. One may need, say, 10 of them. Then it is not that difficult to type them and organize them as you need it.

It is good to (a) have your setup, (b) ensure that it is what you need and (c) be more familiar with the system.
The more areas you are going to cover, the more complete the list become.

If instead I complain that no one is going to type all those equations for me in the device, meh.

I can understand an argument against the, say, 9860 series of the casio. There there is no way to name variables or to make variable scope only local, so to avoid overwrite variables used by other programs. One is limited with the programs, the labels have only 6 (or 8?) characters, and so on. So it is clumsy to build an extensive list of equations, although it is possible.

With the prime is really trivial. The HP PPL, although limited (ex: chars in variable names or function names are like "max 30" IIRC), is powerful and expressive.

And then, once again, if the prime is not for engineers because it is not filled with every possible formula, what about the older models from hp? Aside from 50g, 49g+, 49 series. Did the 71B or the 41 or the 67 model have all the formulas builtin without need of buying expansions? (or typing the formulas)

So even that is garbage?

I mean, I love the 50g. I have four (no other calculator is so present in my home). But to claim that all the others are garbage based on some weak argument is a bit of bad taste.

For example - I did not know this until some weeks ago - the 35. The first calculator. It is not better than any scientific calculator that you can get for 30 euro today in terms of functions. Nonetheless there is at least one book ( HP-35 Math Pac ) that collects a lot of equations for the 35 (of course one can adapt them to every calculator). For me a 35 plus that book is quite complete, one doesn't need much more if the need is to solve single equations.

So if the 35 can do it, the prime can do it too.

[toml_12953]

(05-05-2018 11:49 AM)dmmaster Wrote:  Simple. You cannot do serious mathematics with the HP Prime.

The HP Prime is 100x faster than HP50G. It is a big power in the hand, however the software is a complete return to the past and ideally made to make concurrence with Casio and TI. But this is another type of customers.

There are many many reasons. There are many drawbacks with the HP-Prime, compared to the previous HP model. Here an example:
https://www.thecalculatorstore.com/Calcu...e-HP-Prime
https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Calculator...-p/5812349

Many more points can be given easily.

Just because they don't come with the Prime doesn't mean you can't use it for "serious" work. If you're a surveyor, you can write and load all kinds of programs useful to your job. If you're a civil, electrical, mechanical engineer, you can load programs for those fields, too. What ever the 50g can do, the Prime can do and do it much faster. It may not do it the same way (RPL vs HPPL) but it can do it.

[Valentin Albillo]

(05-04-2018 10:07 PM)dmmaster Wrote:  The HP Prime is rather ok for studying, but it will not be ok for engineers.

For many decades now, many of the very best engineers have extensively used such groundbreaking models as the HP-65, HP-67 and HP-41C in all its variants. I got to know and work for many years with a number of such engineers and doctor engineers, which used them to help with the construction of many civil structures such as buildings, bridges, etc., both at their working place and on location. And this is not an opinion, it's a fact.

The Prime (which I do not own, no fanboy here) is vastly superior to all those models, many orders of magnitude in fact, ergo ...

You're entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts.

V.
.

[zooropa1844]

Pier4r said:

Quote:Pick this for example: https://www.easycalculation.com/formulas/index.php
There may be hundreds of equations there.

As a side note to the topic in discussion, I'd like to point out that I hope those hundreds of equations are better written than the first one, which is the quadratic formula, and it reads something like x=(-b+-√b^2-4xaxc)/2xa. At least in my android mobile. Holy crap!

Regards,

[pier4r]

yes the notation there is terrible, although the pointers are not bad (the site is full of ads though. I did not see it with javascript disabled).

This is better. https://www.fxsolver.com/browse/

Via google is pretty hard to get a good result like (https://www.fxsolver.com/browse/) I am unable to get a proper search string.

"collection engineering formulas" does not yield good results.

[dmmaster]

It is fast, but it does not mean that it is better. Software, content and usage are more important and valuable than colors and touch-screen (for engineers). Professional user interface allows to deal with content. Keyboard layout of HP49/HP50G allows to stay in focus on math/finances/sciences/... (i.e. content). Touchscreen is good, but it could be sometimes a small barrier, it makes it difficult. In comparison, you can give a very simple mathematical problem + Wolfram Mathematica, and students can't find a solution. Many students have troubles with usability of software's (mouses,...). This is just a fact. Maybe, newer generations of students may have sometimes more conflicts with numerous distractions.
Modern interfaces and usability will actually often distract and bring students away from their main learning goals.

Quora gives here a good definition, just quoting from Quora:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-main-...d-HP-Prime

Quote:The HP50g is the last of the “professional calculator.” The HP50g includes a periodic table, SD card slot, better unit conversion, and the old-school HP scientific/financial equation library.

The HP Prime is more of an academic/mathematician young brother. It offers inverse probability functions, better matrix input, colored graphing, and spreadsheet support.

It is really your call. IMO If I had $150 to blow on a device, I would check Wally World for a netbook.

Quora gives a clean definition of the usage of these 2 graphical calculators:
- HP Prime: for "young brother" and for school
- HP50G: for professionals, engineers, and for scientific/financial interests, for sciences.