43S News

[jebem]

2018 seems to be a great year on RPN revival.

There are some news on a future 43S calculator.

Now, I wonder if this "43S" project is exactly the same project as this "WP-43S" under a new model name, as at least one of the developers is participating on both projects, despite a new player under the nickname "Over_score" seems to be developing a "43S" simulator.

[Paul Dale]

It is the same project. I've been involved too albeit not coding thus far.

Pauli

[jebem]

(03-07-2018 11:13 PM)Paul Dale Wrote:  It is the same project. I've been involved too albeit not coding thus far.

Pauli

Thanks for the information, Pauli.

I always found the designation "WP" too limited to include the main developers of the previous 34S project, but never asked about it.
Assuming that Marcus also did a lot of work to develop the "WP-34S", the prefix could have been something like "WPM".
No offense intended to anyone, just curious.

[Paul Dale]

I don't remember the history behind not including the M. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned at some point.

Pauli

[burkhard]

I'm *very* excited for this, as I've been a big fan of and cheerleader for the WP-34s. The only thing that has bothered me about it has been the inconsistent keyboard quality on the underlying HP-30b. The two WP-34s I built each have keys that sometimes click but don't register. That's of course not a fault of the project, but rather HP beancounter-oriented supplier selection.

Looking at the proposed key layout, my one request, no... a beg (and I guess I'll need to get on the SwissMicros forum to post it for Walter) would be to *either*

A. Put the math operators on the LEFT side in order from top to bottom (- , + , * , / ). This matches HP-41C and earlier calculators.

OR

B. Put on the math operators on the RIGHT side in order from top to bottom (/ , * , - , +). This matches the HP-28C and newer calculators (including the WP-34s).

This "Layout C" that is presently shown is an odd hybrid. It's the newer top-to-bottom order, but on the old side of the calculator. Obviously, the operator key layout is arbitrary, but 2 prior standards exist and calculator-usage facility (speed) is aided by not fighting muscle memory. It's bad enough HP created two different conventions already; please pick either one of those and don't make a third!

My brain is still hard-wired to the right side layout from my HP-15C that was well-exercised through engineering school 30 years ago. I've been retraining it (slowly) to be more HP-41 and "Classic" friendly. That's not easy; a third layout would be too much :-) I'm actually a bit surprised Walter would make it different from the WP-34s, since this machine will attract many of the same users.

Still, I am thrilled this is beginning to move again! I really think there remains a niche market for an advanced calculator aimed at professional scientists and engineers, not students. That might be the "big market" (and it ain't what it used to be), but it's not the only market. I anticipate this team collaboration will put out a fine product. I want one.

burkhard

[Didier Lachieze]

(03-16-2018 09:07 PM)burkhard Wrote:  This "Layout C" that is presently shown is an odd hybrid. It's the newer top-to-bottom order, but on the old side of the calculator. Obviously, the operator key layout is arbitrary, but 2 prior standards exist and calculator-usage facility (speed) is aided by not fighting muscle memory. It's bad enough HP created two different conventions already; please pick either one of those and don't make a third!

I'm with you but I don't think there is any possibility to reopen this topic. You can see some related discussions here and there.

[burkhard]

Wow, Didier, thanks! Your links were most informative but yet incredibly perplexing...

I tried registering on the Swiss Micros forum to post last week, but I'm not approved yet,

I hope the Swiss Micros team is able to exercise some "gentle persuasion" on correcting this one aspect of the proposed design. From both forums' responses, it seems like *nobody* favors the "Layout C" except its designer (whom I agree with on almost everything else). That's really unfortunate, as the people whom this product is aimed at are rabid HP devotees. They are well-familiar and expect either Layout A or Layout B. Making a new layout for something as critical as the math operators doesn't enable ease-of-use for your Core market, something key to industrial design.

We (mostly) all use computer keyboards that are either QWERTY, QWERTZ, or AZERTY. There are historical reasons for this, and while it isn't either the most efficient nor the order we learned the alphabet, we stick with it because it is a standard in multiple types of devices and we've all learned that way and had years (or decades!) of muscle-memory burned in. If somebody came out with a product that forced using the Dvorak layout, its market would be very limited. There is already a relatively small market for a 43s sort of calculator. I would think it wouldn't be wise to similarly constrain what is already a niche market with a non-standard layout.

I love the WP-34s layout... why monkey with the heart of it so much? That was well-considered. I would hope this might be a gentle evolution upon it.

[Logan]

That was very similar to my thoughts when glancing through those threads: regardless of the most "logical" order, if familiarity is at all there, it's likely best to stick with expectations.

In fact, as an example, the order of operations has never once crossed my mind when looking at a calculator keyboard for the product or division key. I'm not sure I would prefer a particular order, but if I'm used to one...

I understand different users have different familiarity. I can hardly conceive of operations being on the left but I could see some people being familiar with it and wanting things to be that way...but isn't 40 years passing long enough?

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(03-19-2018 05:13 PM)Logan Wrote:  but isn't 40 years passing long enough? :D

Obviously not, or we wouldn't be here. ;)

[sa-penguin]

This reminds me of an idea I had years ago:

1. Let the users open the calculator, and rearrange the keys as they see fit,
2. Have the "keypad to function matrix" as a user-modifiable file or table. Similar to how /etc/hosts resolves names to IP addresses.

You want to switch the basic operators to left or right? Change the order? Go for it.
Are you primarily using finance functions? You can customize for that too - replace trig keys with PMT, PV, etc.
You want to replace the alphabet with Greek / Japanese / Korean / Thai / Klingon? Anything that's Unicode could be in the key lookup file.

It's not likely to happen. But hey, I can dream.

EDIT:
Reading the 43S forum notes, found this from Walter:

Quote: There is, however, a medicine for those who would rather die than accept the 4 operators there: you're free to reassign each and every key and function of the 43S except USR. Hope this helps.

Yes, that helps. All we need now is the ability to physically move labelled keys around.

[emece67]

(03-20-2018 08:53 AM)sa-penguin Wrote:  This reminds me of an idea I had years ago:

1. Let the users open the calculator, and rearrange the keys as they see fit,
2. Have the "keypad to function matrix" as a user-modifiable file or table. Similar to how /etc/hosts resolves names to IP addresses.

You want to switch the basic operators to left or right? Change the order? Go for it.
Are you primarily using finance functions? You can customize for that too - replace trig keys with PMT, PV, etc.
You want to replace the alphabet with Greek / Japanese / Korean / Thai / Klingon? Anything that's Unicode could be in the key lookup file.

It's not likely to happen. But hey, I can dream.

After seeing the "exotic" proposal for the keyboard layout on the wp43s, I also thought on this. But, if my memory serves me well, the keys on the Swissmicros DM series are not individual pieces, but all keys share the same frame. I suppose the DM42 (and thus the wp43) follows the same design, so this approach may not be feasible. Perhaps some DM42 owner can confirm this.

Regards.

[Logan]

That's correct: the keys are all part of the faceplate, just connected by two tabs.

[Thomas_Sch]

(11-08-2018 09:16 PM)eg64293 Wrote:  We are all waiting for the video now.

Here it is: http://www.hp-collection.org/meeting2018_review.html
-> http://www.hp-collection.org/Meeting2018...roject.pdf
and https://youtu.be/iVpOUAgtSTw

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(11-18-2018 10:15 AM)eg64293 Wrote:  After all those years, eventually 1 person out of 7.5 billion people was found being willing to contribute software-wise. Doesn't really match the excitement about this project observed here else, does it? What do you think?

I think that this is due to the somewhat troubled history of this project. A short time after the conclusion of the predecessor project "WP34", brainstorming towards the successor had started on this forum (maybe somewhere else es well, but I am not aware of that). Then, for some reason still unknown to me - and most others as well I guess - the "W" part of "WP" got himself banned from this forum for lifetime. Thereby the link between the basis of possible contributors (and future users) of this product and it's project management got severed. In short words: Nobody ever asked anyone of us if we would be willing to program for this project.

As I understand it from watching the video, "WP43" is now going to be a commercial product instead of the kind of community project that WP34 was.
The hardware will be supplied as-is by Swiss Micros and the software is written by a contracted developer (Martin Lorang) - which is the only thing that makes sense in that environment.

We can only wait and see what comes out of it. A Swiss Micros DM42 (i.e. the hardware part) costs 200 Euros already. Distributing the cost of getting the software made over a (probalbly) small number of units will bring the price up to eye-watering levels, I'm afraid. But maybe not - who knows?

Regards
Max

[Sylvain Cote]

(03-08-2018 02:34 PM)jebem Wrote:  I always found the designation "WP" too limited to include the main developers of the previous 34S project, but never asked about it.
Assuming that Marcus also did a lot of work to develop the "WP-34S", the prefix could have been something like "WPM".

The name of the WP-34S project is discussed here.

[burkhard]

(11-18-2018 12:02 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  As I understand it from watching the video, "WP43" is now going to be a commercial product instead of the kind of community project that WP34 was.

From what I can tell, it’s a bit of a hybrid, some of each. But that’s for the players to work out. I’m sure nobody would be doing it if the expected cost were truly crazy such that there would be no buyers. That’s kinda pointless. Being tied to existing HP hardware (and dependent on its design, production quality, and natural product life cycle) proved one of the big challenges on the WP34S. I applaud the team and SM for trying to find a way around that for the new project. I’m very much looking forward to the finished product.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(11-18-2018 12:02 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  the "W" part of "WP" got himself banned from this forum for lifetime.

Never say never. ;)

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(11-18-2018 06:19 PM)eg64293 Wrote:  Interesting. I don't know how you got the impression that Martin Lorang is a contracted developer?

This is what "I took home" from watching the video: That after a long search they finally hired a programmer to do the coding in finite time. But maybe that was just a misunderstanding from listening to English which had been translated from it's original German and which I had to translate back to German again...

And therefore I kept wondering what the final price could be after splitting a year's salary of an IT person over maybe 1000 units. And I doubt that it will be that many: With the WP34s, the hardware cost was negligible, I bought a couple of HP-20b and 30b donors for not much more than 10 Euros some years ago. Now the hardware alone is going to cost 200 Euros (and no chance to get one cheaper anywhere) which will result in a very small number of units finding their way to (true!) enthusiasts.

Regards
Max

[HP-Collection]

Not shure about that as Michaels DM42 sells really good for enthusiasts. I agree, normal users might use a app on their mobile, but it's not the same feelding pressing on a display than on real keys and it will not be allowed in any examinations.