HP-71B directory of 9114B disk

[Craig Bladow]

I have a LIF disk that I can list the directory from an HP-41 with the command "DIR", I would like to do the same thing from an HP-71B, but there is no DIR command. Also, would the 71 be able to list a directory that was written by a 41?

[rprosperi]

(03-31-2018 07:56 PM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  I have a LIF disk that I can list the directory from an HP-41 with the command "DIR", I would like to do the same thing from an HP-71B, but there is no DIR command. Also, would the 71 be able to list a directory that was written by a 41?

A LIF disk catalog (directory) is readable by any of the machines that support those drives (41, 71, 75, 83, 85, 86, 87, etc.).

On a 71 you use the CAT command. It will initially display the first file, then you use the up and down arrows to move along the file list.

The mass storage device can be addressed several ways. These examples all display catalog of the first mass storage device:

CAT :TAPE(1)
CAT :MASSMEM(1)
CAT :1 (assuming the mass storage device is the first device on the loop, else :2 for 2nd, :3 for 3rd, etc.)

If you know the volume label for the disk, e.g. "MYVOL", you could also use:

CAT .MYVOL (note the initial dot)

You can also get directory info for a given known file; e.g. for "myfile"

CAT MYFILE:TAPE(1) to see all the details (file type, date, time)

Note that on the '71 (unlike '75 or Series-80) quotes are NOT used around the device/file arguments.

Files from an HP-41 are typically not recognized by a '71, so you can read the directory, but most files types appear unknown, except a '41 ASCII file appears as '71 TEXT file.

A '71 can be enhanced to 'recognize' other file types by LEX files with poll handlers; for example the JPC ROM adds to ability to recognize almost all '41, '71 and '75 file types, plus also a few of the Series-80 file types.

However, just because the CAT command can recognize these file types, it does not mean the '71 can open/read them, that would depend on special s/w that understands how to interpret the files' contents.

[Craig Bladow]

Thanks Bob! That worked!

Do you know if there exists a LIF <-> CP/M disk utility since the HP-86 could run CP/M with the addition of an HP Model 82900A?

[rprosperi]

(03-31-2018 10:23 PM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  Thanks Bob! That worked!

Do you know if there exists a LIF <-> CP/M disk utility since the HP-86 could run CP/M with the addition of an HP Model 82900A?

Glad that helped.

Short answer: Nothing simple.

The Series-80 CP/M file system essentially exists inside a single LIF file, and there is no cooked-in way to import/export files. After much discussion (perhaps 1-1.5 years ago on the Series-80 newsgroup) IIRC, the consensus was that the easiest method is to use serial ports to send the subject file to another machine, and then possibly back to Series-80, depending on if the target machine can natively write/read LIF media. This is one of the key reasons Series-80 CP/M pretty much failed from the beginning.

After the discussion noted above, I never heard any further solutions, so no idea if anyone perfected any file exchange process, I know I was discouraged and stopped looking.

So while I am happy to have a CP/M co-processor card for my HP-87XM, odds of actually using it are slim.

I'd suggest you post a note in the Series-80 newsgroup, it's possible someone has developed a usable technique.

[Craig Bladow]

Where can I find LIF disk images for HP-41c/cv/cx and HP-71b?

[Joe Horn]

(04-06-2018 03:38 AM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  Where can I find LIF disk images for HP-41c/cv/cx and HP-71b?

One HUGE source for them is the "Online LIF Disk Project" collection. It contains the complete LIF disk images of all the "Swap Disks" (in the SWAP subfolder) as well as all the non-SWAP disks in my personal collection (in the HORN subfolder).

The text file called "HP-41 files on swapdisks" lists which swap disks contain HP-41 files, as well as their count.

Similarly, the text file called "HP-71 files on swapdisks" lists which swap disks contain HP-71 files, as well as their count.

The other files are there to help you find things in the SWAP and HORN folders, as well as general information related to life with LIF disks.

If you'd like to download the entire "Online LIF Disk Project" as a single zipfile, it's available here: http://holyjoe.net/HP71/Online-LIF-Disk-Project.zip

[Dave Frederickson]

(04-06-2018 05:05 AM)Joe Horn Wrote:  

(04-06-2018 03:38 AM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  Where can I find LIF disk images for HP-41c/cv/cx and HP-71b?

One HUGE source for them is the "Online LIF Disk Project" collection. It contains the complete LIF disk images of all the "Swap Disks" (in the SWAP subfolder) as well as all the non-SWAP disks in my personal collection (in the HORN subfolder).

The text file called "HP-41 files on swapdisks" lists which swap disks contain HP-41 files, as well as their count.

Similarly, the text file called "HP-71 files on swapdisks" lists which swap disks contain HP-71 files, as well as their count.

The other files are there to help you find things in the SWAP and HORN folders, as well as general information related to life with LIF disks.

If you'd like to download the entire "Online LIF Disk Project" as a single zipfile, it's available here: http://holyjoe.net/HP71/Online-LIF-Disk-Project.zip

Note that in the OLDP Joe has pre-extracted the text files from the LIF images into folders of the same name as the image, making it easier to browse the available documentation.

Also, you may find that pyILPER makes a nice front-end for the LIFUTILS which makes it easy to do things like view 71B LEX files, 41 programs, and 75 text files, all without firing up an emulator.

[Craig Bladow]

Thanks for the pointers to the files!

[Craig Bladow]

So was/is there accompanying information on the applications? For example on CHHU 03 there is a 41 program called "AA3". Is there any document to tell me what the function is and how to use it?

By the way, the listing of the directory of that disk resulted in nearly a meter* long print out on an 82240b printer!


* disclaimer: I may be exaggerating, and SI units were not my first measurement system.

[Thomas Okken]

(04-11-2018 06:20 PM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  * disclaimer: I may be exaggerating, and SI units were not my first measurement system.

From the random-things-my-father-taught-me dept.:

"A meter is measures three foot three
It's longer than a yard, you see."

[rprosperi]

(04-11-2018 06:20 PM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  So was/is there accompanying information on the applications? For example on CHHU 03 there is a 41 program called "AA3". Is there any document to tell me what the function is and how to use it?

Generally speaking, no there isn't any (clear) documentation. Many programs also have a brief text file with similar filename, but often (usually when it's most interesting sounding) there is just the program file. The good news is with a '41 program, you can examine the FOCAL and get the gist of it at least; try that with a 71 or 75 LEX file!

Copy and print the file SWAP85SF at the end of the volume, it contains an annotated directory listing, typically made by Mike Markov when he was preparing most of the SWAPxx images.

BACK UP YOUR MACHINE before trying any of these unknown programs, it is not uncommon to crash, if the program is using synthetics, or expecting specific input, etc.

Copy and print the file SWAP85SF at the end of the volume, it contains an annotated directory listing, typically made by Mike Markov when he was preparing most of the SWAPxx images. Though for AA3, there appear to be no comments.

[Craig Bladow]

(04-11-2018 06:20 PM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  By the way, the listing of the directory of that disk resulted in nearly a meter* long print out on an 82240b printer!

* disclaimer: I may be exaggerating, and SI units were not my first measurement system.

Since many visitors to this website expect precision from their calculators, I had to go measure the listing. I discovered I have no tape measures with metric scales, which apparently I have had no need of until now. The listing was 42 inches long, which NQ41 says is 1.0668 Meters.

3 feet 3 inches is 0.9986 meters which a very good rule to know.

[Craig Bladow]

(04-11-2018 08:23 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Generally speaking, no there isn't any (clear) documentation. Many programs also have a brief text file with similar filename, but often (usually when it's most interesting sounding) there is just the program file. The good news is with a '41 program, you can examine the FOCAL and get the gist of it at least; try that with a 71 or 75 LEX file!

Copy and print the file SWAP85SF at the end of the volume, it contains an annotated directory listing, typically made by Mike Markov when he was preparing most of the SWAPxx images.

BACK UP YOUR MACHINE before trying any of these unknown programs, it is not uncommon to crash, if the program is using synthetics, or expecting specific input, etc.

Copy and print the file SWAP85SF at the end of the volume, it contains an annotated directory listing, typically made by Mike Markov when he was preparing most of the SWAPxx images. Though for AA3, there appear to be no comments.

Bob, Thanks for sharing your insights! Turns out that Joe Horns LIF disk archive contains those extracted files, which includes references for many of the programs.

[Sylvain Cote]

(04-11-2018 06:35 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  

(04-11-2018 06:20 PM)Craig Bladow Wrote:  * disclaimer: I may be exaggerating, and SI units were not my first measurement system.

From the random-things-my-father-taught-me dept.:

"A meter is measures three foot three
It's longer than a yard, you see."

Almost got it
Actually the rule is 3 feet 3 inches and 1/3 of an inch for 0.999 meter.
Sylvain

[Martin Hepperle]

(03-31-2018 10:59 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  [...]
The Series-80 CP/M file system essentially exists inside a single LIF file, and there is no cooked-in way to import/export files. After much discussion (perhaps 1-1.5 years ago on the Series-80 newsgroup) IIRC, the consensus was that the easiest method is to use serial ports to send the subject file to another machine, and then possibly back to Series-80, depending on if the target machine can natively write/read LIF media. This is one of the key reasons Series-80 CP/M pretty much failed from the beginning.

After the discussion noted above, I never heard any further solutions, so no idea if anyone perfected any file exchange process, I know I was discouraged and stopped looking.

So while I am happy to have a CP/M co-processor card for my HP-87XM, odds of actually using it are slim.
[...]

Some time ago I was exploring the guts of the CP/M system for the HP 86/87.

Actually it is quite simple to copy files to a disk for the Series-80 CP/M subsystem.
As the whole disk is in LIF format you can use the original CP/M boot disk for the HP 86/87 as a template and simply replace files in the the single file which represents the CP/M disk image on that LIF disk.
This means all CP/M files have to be copied to this file on the disk, which is at a given offset in the LIF image.
One tool which works fine for this purpose is "cpmtools". This set of programs works with many different CP/M disk image formats and can be configured for the HP-86/87 disks. It transparently handles the CP/M directory "structure" so that you can list, copy and, remove files.

http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/

I have appended the following definitions to the file "diskdefs" to be able to read and write CP/M disk images. The format names are composed of "HP80" followed by a number indicating the disk size (35, 525, 8)
The parameter boottrk defines at which track the CP/M image file starts, i.e. where its boot record is located. The given values are valid if you start with a copy of HPs CP/M boot disk.

Then one can use commands like

Code:


cpmls -f HP80525 cpm_3_mp.hpi

to list the contents of the CP/M file system on a HP-LIF formatted 5.25" disk image.
I used "cpmcp" to copy e.g. ZORK, Turbo Pascal or MULTIPLAN to the disk images.

Code:


# Hewlett-Packard HP86/87 – DSDD 48 tpi 3.5" - 256x16
diskdef HP8035
  seclen 256
  tracks 75
  sectrk 16
  blocksize 1024
  maxdir 128
  skew 0
  boottrk 3
  os 2.2
end

# Hewlett-Packard HP86/87 – DSDD 48 tpi 5.25" - 256x16
diskdef HP80525
  seclen 256
  tracks 35
  sectrk 16
  blocksize 1024
  maxdir 128
  skew 0
  boottrk 3
  os 2.2
end

# Hewlett-Packard HP86/87 – DSDD 48 tpi 8" - 256x30
diskdef HP808
  seclen 256
  tracks 75
  sectrk 30
  blocksize 1024
  maxdir 128
  skew 0
  boottrk 2
  os 2.2
end

As has already been mentioned, more info can be found on the groups.io web site (https://groups.io/g/hpseries80).

Martin