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Guenter Schink · 04-22-2018, 07:06 PM

(04-22-2018 06:39 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote:
(04-22-2018 05:40 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote: The customers have rights, that's literally the whole point of the GPL! Have you ever actually read that document?

Yes I have.

And how do you enforce those rights? You have to think about this, because licenses don't exist in a vacuum. It's you who issued the software under that license, and the breach of contract is with you.

That's pretty much it. I just hope that this situation ends in the best possible way, what's the point otherwise?

Here are some examples how this works. And how expensive it may be for the violator.

Günter

Thomas Okken · 04-22-2018, 07:58 PM

(04-22-2018 06:39 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: It's you who issued the software under that license, and the breach of contract is with you.

SwissMicros obtained that software under the terms of the GPL. That license very specifically delineates users' rights. The breach of contract that SwissMicros is still committing is with their users.

I am so tired of this. Not just of SwissMicros dragging their feet (yet another vacation being used as an excuse why their compliance is going to have to wait yet another several weeks) but also people like you, Manolo, who keep on spreading untruths about how the GPL works, about which rights it confers to whom.

Manolo Sobrino · (This post was last modified: 04-22-2018 08:22 PM by Manolo Sobrino.)

(04-22-2018 07:58 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:
(04-22-2018 06:39 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: It's you who issued the software under that license, and the breach of contract is with you.

SwissMicros obtained that software under the terms of the GPL. That license very specifically delineates users' rights. The breach of contract that SwissMicros is still committing is with their users.

I am so tired of this. Not just of SwissMicros dragging their feet (yet another vacation being used as an excuse why their compliance is going to have to wait yet another several weeks) but also people like you, Manolo, who keep on spreading untruths about how the GPL works, about which rights it confers to whom.

I'm sorry if I did that, I don't think I did but I'm not a lawyer, what do I know. I don't think I can sue them as a user, OK? I have checked it and I don't think I can do that.

The thing is I think/thought this is/was a very exciting product, and I've been backing your choices here all the time as well, as I've told you several times. I'm tired of everybody else not thinking about the technical/legal problems involved in getting a full stack GPL DM42, is that even possible? Nobody cares. I've checked the situation with people that are into embedded development and I trust, they don't think so. I'm tired of the vibe here that assumes everything SwissMicros do is shady. And frankly, at this point I don't know what to expect from this community which seems to enjoy this.

Well, I don't. I'll mind my own business. I'm sorry if I've caused you any trouble or if I've hurt your feelings, it won't happen again. Thank you again for Free42 and I'm done with all this.

Guenter Schink · (This post was last modified: 04-23-2018 12:44 AM by d b.)

(04-22-2018 05:24 AM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:
(04-22-2018 12:15 AM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: .......... let them solve this.......
Thank you Manolo. I like that.
I'm patiently looking forward to my DM42 when everything is sorted.

Den,
I could understand if you aimed towards calming down the discussion about the GPL here. That's your right as a moderator. But seeing you taking side with those who again and again neglect the issue of a valid license really bothers me. This down playing of an serious issue by these people is very annoying. To see you supporting those who don't give a dime on other peoples rights is very disappointing.

Günter

<<<<<MODERATORS NOTE: You're right I can agree with a member who is speaking like a rational adult. Any time I want. Your blithering statement that I "take side with..... bla bla bla.... supporting those who don't give a dime....bla bla ..disappointing" is more than disappointing. NOTHING I said gets to what you accused me of. Get someone to read it and translate it for you if you want. But don't you come here and make up garbage about me on the forum.
How some people turned this from successfully getting SM to agree to fix their copyright errors to name calling, crazy accusations against me, and even somehow dragging Trump into the conversation - that I'll never figure out. -db>>>>>>>

Thomas Okken · 04-22-2018, 08:32 PM

(04-22-2018 08:20 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote:
(04-22-2018 07:58 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote: SwissMicros obtained that software under the terms of the GPL. That license very specifically delineates users' rights. The breach of contract that SwissMicros is still committing is with their users.

I am so tired of this. Not just of SwissMicros dragging their feet (yet another vacation being used as an excuse why their compliance is going to have to wait yet another several weeks) but also people like you, Manolo, who keep on spreading untruths about how the GPL works, about which rights it confers to whom.

I'm sorry if I did that, I don't think I did but I'm not a lawyer, what do I know. I don't think I can sue them as a user, OK? I have checked it and I don't think I can do that.

So what did you check? What makes you come to the conclusion that the GPL is not being violated here, or is not enforceable?

(04-22-2018 08:20 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: The thing is I think/thought this is/was a very exciting product, and I've been backing your choices here all the time as well, as I've told you several times. I'm tired of everybody else not thinking about the technical/legal problems involved in getting a full stack GPL DM42, is that even possible? Nobody cares. I've checked the situation with people that are into embedded development and I trust, they don't think so. I'm tired of the vibe here that assumes everything SwissMicros do is shady. And frankly, at this point I don't know what to expect from this community which seems to enjoy this.

Well, I don't. I'll mind my own business. I'm sorry if I've caused you any trouble or if I've hurt your feelings, it won't happen again. Thank you again for Free42 and I'm done with all this.

I'm tired of the vibe that you are spreading, that everything SwissMicros is doing is all fine and dandy. You just like their product, and the fact that it's illegal is just an annoyance that you would just prefer to ignore, and not be reminded of, and everyone just to shut up about.

You concern about my feelings is duly noted. /sarcasm

Manolo Sobrino · 04-22-2018, 08:47 PM

(04-22-2018 08:32 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:
(04-22-2018 08:20 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: I'm sorry if I did that, I don't think I did but I'm not a lawyer, what do I know. I don't think I can sue them as a user, OK? I have checked it and I don't think I can do that.

So what did you check? What makes you come to the conclusion that the GPL is not being violated here, or is not enforceable?

(04-22-2018 08:20 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: The thing is I think/thought this is/was a very exciting product, and I've been backing your choices here all the time as well, as I've told you several times. I'm tired of everybody else not thinking about the technical/legal problems involved in getting a full stack GPL DM42, is that even possible? Nobody cares. I've checked the situation with people that are into embedded development and I trust, they don't think so. I'm tired of the vibe here that assumes everything SwissMicros do is shady. And frankly, at this point I don't know what to expect from this community which seems to enjoy this.

Well, I don't. I'll mind my own business. I'm sorry if I've caused you any trouble or if I've hurt your feelings, it won't happen again. Thank you again for Free42 and I'm done with all this.

I'm tired of the vibe that you are spreading, that everything SwissMicros is doing is all fine and dandy. You just like their product, and the fact that it's illegal is just an annoyance that you would just prefer to ignore, and not be reminded of, and everyone just to shut up about.

You concern about my feelings is duly noted. /sarcasm

Come on Thomas, of course I've said SM has violated the GPL, of course I've said user rights can be enforced, actually I've said it's up to you how to do so and when to do so, in court. Do I have to say that users can enforce GPL for you? Well I won't.

I have no relationship with SM, I've never said that what they did is fine and dandy, do I have to quote my posts in this forum? I've said that they're in a very difficult situation, and it's their fault. What else do you want me to say? I'm sorry but I'm not lynching the guys if that's what you're asking.

I was just asking all parties to be reasonable and work something out, can all parties be reasonable? I'm not getting that. I'm just getting a "stay away from GPL, because it will explode".

You're not thinking straight about this Thomas. And I'm upset in a literal sense, yes I am.

Thomas Okken · 04-22-2018, 09:02 PM

(04-22-2018 08:47 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: Come on Thomas, of course I've said SM has violated the GPL, of course I've said user rights can be enforced, actually I've said it's up to you how to do so and when to do so, in court. Do I have to say that users can enforce GPL for you? Well I won't.

No, in fact, you said the exact opposite:

(04-22-2018 04:04 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: Thomas, you are the copyright holder and as such you have the legal standing to sue. Users/customers don't. Sadly these things come to litigation, which I don't think was the point of GPL but here we are.

(Emphasis mine)

You were saying? Could you do us all a favor and try to figure out what point you want to make before posting?

(04-22-2018 08:47 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: I was just asking all parties to be reasonable and work something out, can all parties be reasonable? I'm not getting that. I'm just getting a "stay away from GPL, because it will explode".

You're not thinking straight about this Thomas. And I'm upset in a literal sense, yes I am.

Oh, right. I'm not being reasonable. What exactly am I supposed to "work out"? Oh, hey, SwissMicros, you clearly didn't pay attention to the license under which you're using the code that I wrote, but hey, no problem?

The unreasonable party here is SwissMicros, and everyone defending their illegal actions. Yes, I really resent the implication that *I* am in any way unreasonable here.

Manolo Sobrino · 04-22-2018, 09:15 PM

(04-22-2018 09:02 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:
(04-22-2018 08:47 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: Come on Thomas, of course I've said SM has violated the GPL, of course I've said user rights can be enforced, actually I've said it's up to you how to do so and when to do so, in court. Do I have to say that users can enforce GPL for you? Well I won't.

No, in fact, you said the exact opposite:

(04-22-2018 04:04 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: Thomas, you are the copyright holder and as such you have the legal standing to sue. Users/customers don't. Sadly these things come to litigation, which I don't think was the point of GPL but here we are.

(Emphasis mine)

You were saying? Could you do us all a favor and try to figure out what point you want to make before posting?

(04-22-2018 08:47 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: I was just asking all parties to be reasonable and work something out, can all parties be reasonable? I'm not getting that. I'm just getting a "stay away from GPL, because it will explode".

You're not thinking straight about this Thomas. And I'm upset in a literal sense, yes I am.

Oh, right. I'm not being reasonable. What exactly am I supposed to "work out"? Oh, hey, SwissMicros, you clearly didn't pay attention to the license under which you're using the code that I wrote, but hey, no problem?

The unreasonable party here is SwissMicros, and everyone defending their illegal actions. Yes, I really resent the implication that *I* am in any way unreasonable here.

Oh dear, I've written legal standing for a reason. I can't go around suing for GPL violations if I have nothing to do with the copyright, well I could as a hobby but it would be pointless. That was my point. The FSF can do that with GPL GNU violations because GNU is basically theirs, but although they might help with it they won't sue SM for you.

I'm not defending SM. Let's kill this calculator and be done with it. We all have better things to do.

Thomas Okken · 04-22-2018, 09:25 PM

(04-22-2018 09:15 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: Oh dear, I've written legal standing for a reason. I can't go around suing for GPL violations if I have nothing to do with the copyright, well I could as a hobby but it would be pointless. That was my point. The FSF can do that with GPL GNU violations because GNU is basically theirs, but although they might help with it they won't sue SM for you.

*sigh*

DM42 buyers do have legal standing to sue SwissMicros.

Please, please, please, read the GPL. You claim you have, but you obviously haven't. This is exactly what the GPL is about. Stop throwing around your ignorant opinions and get informed. Please.

Manolo Sobrino · 04-22-2018, 09:30 PM

(04-22-2018 09:25 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:
(04-22-2018 09:15 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: Oh dear, I've written legal standing for a reason. I can't go around suing for GPL violations if I have nothing to do with the copyright, well I could as a hobby but it would be pointless. That was my point. The FSF can do that with GPL GNU violations because GNU is basically theirs, but although they might help with it they won't sue SM for you.

*sigh*

DM42 buyers do have legal standing to sue SwissMicros.

Please, please, please, read the GPL. You claim you have, but you obviously haven't. This is exactly what the GPL is about. Stop throwing around your ignorant opinions and get informed. Please.

Well, I might be getting old so I end up mixing everything, it's all so difficult nowadays...

I'm taking my ignorant opinions elsewhere, I've had enough. Happy trails.

Thomas Okken · 04-22-2018, 10:19 PM

(04-22-2018 09:30 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: I'm taking my ignorant opinions elsewhere, I've had enough.

Great, glad to hear it.

Manolo Sobrino · (This post was last modified: 04-22-2018 10:37 PM by Manolo Sobrino.)

(04-22-2018 10:19 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:
(04-22-2018 09:30 PM)Manolo Sobrino Wrote: I'm taking my ignorant opinions elsewhere, I've had enough.

Great, glad to hear it.

You know Thomas, at this point I have to resist a very strong urge to wipe out Free42 from my smartphone. And maybe get a real HP 42S, which BTW I don't know if you have asked anybody any permission to clone.

You should consider carefully what's the image you're giving here about GPL, about the open-source software movement and about yourself... I don't get you, and I don't think that you know what you really want at this point.

d b · (This post was last modified: 04-23-2018 02:08 AM by d b.)

(04-22-2018 09:25 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote: Stop throwing around your ignorant opinions and get informed.

Unless the other moderators have a different opinion; the entire 42 subject is closed on any thread. I just locked up the remaining two[Edit: and erased a third real bad one which was reported]. If any of the many members who reported the tantrum posts in the past on this see more cropping up; please report them or PM me so I can axe those. There have been too many people name calling and making stuff up. The children still clamoring for a lawsuit when SM has agreed to fix what they did wrong, those disgust me.