Software for "Variable" and directories for HP Prime?

[dmmaster]

Hello,

The cool thing with the HP50G and standard HP is the variable menu. The user can define any names of variables, and they can contain matrix, reals,... complex. Those variables are stored into a given directory.
It is cool because it is possible to have different directories and to work on several projects. Order, maintain, work, and just made for success. !

It is fast, useful and performant. On HP Prime, predefined variable are annoying.

Directories on HP standard are great, really.

Is there any chances to get such features by software on the HP PRIME or by given tricks to reflash it for superior software?





--
using 2016 04 04 !(100024)
hardware version c
cav 1.1.2-11

[cyrille de brébisson]

Hello,

It is very unlikely, sorry...

Prime does have directories of sort.
Apps are (internally at least) directories and you can store variables (and files) in a specific app. (there is no sub-directories however)...
Granted, the var creation is not as easy as it was on the 48 series, but the access through the var menu is not bad at all..

Cyrille

[Stevetuc]

Im curious if the reason its unlikely is because of technical difficulties? Lack of directories seems very limiting for longterm serious work, but not so much for classroom use.

[tcab]

You may know all this - just putting it out there in case it helps:

Create a new application for each project you feel needs a "directory", either based on an existing application or based on none. Just select an application and hit "save". This, as Cyrille says, will give you a "directory", with variables that are only active when that application is active. You can tell which application is active by looking at the titlebar of the HP Prime.

This is a subtle but crucial piece of knowledge, that to me, made the whole App idea on the Prime make sense. There is always an active application whose special application variables appear in scope. Conversely those variables disappear from scope when that application is no longer the active application. For example F1 will refer to your F1(X) function if the "Function App" is active but refers to spreadsheet location F1 when the "Spreadsheet App" is active. General global variables you create are global and accessible no matter which app is active.

So, looking just at application variables:

Code:

AVars    - lists application vars of the current active application
AVars("myvar4"):=987    - create an application var

You can also auto create application variables by editing the current application "program" e.g.

Code:

EXPORT myvar1, myvar2:=123, myvar3;  // custom application vars

and these application variables are created when you activate that app. You can also run code in the START() function of the application "program", and assign calculations, or whatever, to those application variables. You can also access any apps variables by full namespace references e.g. Spreadsheet.F1 or Function.F1 no matter which application is currently active.

More refs:
- see https://en.hpprime.club/articles/hans-hp...-variables for a nice article re scope.
- see how to create custom vars https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Calculator...-p/6279061

[dmmaster]

(05-09-2018 05:45 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Im curious if the reason its unlikely is because of technical difficulties? Lack of directories seems very limiting for longterm serious work, but not so much for classroom use.

I totally agree with you.

If you are a civil engineer, on travel, building anything abroad, it is likely better to have a HP50G, but for school interests, geometry, graphs, ... HP prime does its job very well. HP Prime is pretty good in all cases.

Maybe the way would be to hack it and to do some reverse engineering to improve the software.
The hardware is excellent, and in all cases, much much powerful than the HP48, 49 , 50.
Maybe a time for a good back for HP 69 Should be then reversable

[compsystems]

Even if you can only have one directory, there are problems when the files have the same external name, the solution that I propose has not been heard.

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-10151.html

[cyrille de brébisson]

Hello,

Directories have been discussed internally and, basically, we came to the conclusion that the work involved in implementing them was not justifiable at that given time (ie, we had more important fishes to catch), for a number of reasons...

We also came to the conclusion that, should we be implementing directories, it would be more along the lines of what Apple has done with the grouping of apps on IOS, not "directories" in the usual PC files way...

This stems from the fact that the intended use model of the Prime differs from the 48 series one.

Prime introduced "single file" programs where a single file contains all the information and apps that provides an on-off context...

The "idea", on a well organized calculator, what that Programs would be used for "math type" libraries. Things that needs to be always accessible such as specific generic calculations functions, while apps would provide (usually GUI driven) programs that could be started and stopped.

In this "world" programs would not have to store data (or just a limited set) while apps could. Apps would then be able to be developped either as a "one app copy, one data set" or a "one app, many data set" depending on what the developer needs/wants.

Small little "temp" programs (or test programs or programming exercises) would have a short lifetime and not be in large numbers, therefore not "poluting" the list.

We thought that, unless we started seeing hundreds of applications being developed, app grouping would not be nessecary...



If you envision the use of the system as I have described, you will see that directories become much less needed. But it does require a change in the way we work/think compare with the 48 series...
Some uses, such as users with massive data set comming from various customers might not work and need directories... And for the moment, we have no easy solutions for them (besides creating virtual directories through a user created program that would implemetn some indirection)....

I hope that this helps clarify things a little bit...
Cyrille

[pier4r]

Cyrille thanks for sharing!

[dmmaster]

(05-14-2018 05:18 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote:  Hello,

Directories have been discussed internally and, basically, we came to the conclusion that the work involved in implementing them was not justifiable at that given time (ie, we had more important fishes to catch), for a number of reasons...

Thank you for your post. It is interesting that directories are underrated.

Despite all respect, really deep respect, I am surprised of the answer.

Physics, and Human nature, are likely bound to increasing entropy.
Ordering, or directories, are consistent for all organizations, computer technologies and systems, including calculators.

Quote:In computing, a directory is a file system cataloging structure which contains references to other computer files, and possibly other directories. On many computers, directories are known as folders, or drawers[1] to provide some relevancy to a workbench or the traditional office file cabinet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directory_(computing)

Ordering is narrowly liked with mathematics.
Kids do this really early, by themselves, it's just our human nature.

I am my opinion, it is really a kinda strange business strategy and software development of HP...

[mfleming]

I think tcab has a good explanation of the Prime's organizational principle. His example of variables applies equally well to files, which are local to each application instance. You seem to still be stuck on the root and branch organizational model. The Prime approach is to divide the problem space into App domains like Finance, Graphing and Spreadsheet (classes), then creating individual instances (objects) with their own state. You can create your own custom problem domain App if you wish. It would be nice if it were a little easier to access capabilities of other Apps when doing so, like their graphing libraries for instance (multiple inheritance?).

Cheer up though! If you feel a hierarchy is essential, write a simple PPL implementation (create, destroy, move, cd, pwd). A directory is nothing more than a list of file names and their location (see HP48 implementaion for details). Files are just written to a flat storage space and structure is imposed via directory lists. It would be interesting and instructive to work on such a program, it doesn't need a GUI to start with, and in the end it may even give you some appreciation for Cyrille's ranking of that feature

Have fun with it,
~Mark

[Stevetuc]

(05-15-2018 03:37 AM)mfleming Wrote:  ....
Cheer up though! If you feel a hierarchy is essential, write a simple PPL implementation (create, destroy, move, cd, pwd). A directory is nothing more than a list of file names and their location (see HP48 implementaion for details). Files are just written to a flat storage space and structure is imposed via directory lists. It would be interesting and instructive to work on such a program, it doesn't need a GUI to start with, and in the end it may even give you some appreciation for Cyrille's ranking of that feature

Have fun with it,
~Mark

I think this can as viewed as a a compelling reason why a directory structure is badly needed- Structure, the clue is in the word... Certainly the program file directory does. It's unrelated to the app paradym and is currently just a disorganised flat list and the reason most people complain. Of course, it could be written by users in PPL, just as the missing RPN functionality can be worked around, but its the job of the UI to do this!

And the app icons needs subdirs even apple realise this on the iphone just try navigating your phone with a flat sea of icons (add your own punctuation if you feel this sentence needs structure)

/Steve

[dmmaster]

(05-15-2018 06:12 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  

(05-15-2018 03:37 AM)mfleming Wrote:  ....
Cheer up though! If you feel a hierarchy is essential, write a simple PPL implementation (create, destroy, move, cd, pwd). A directory is nothing more than a list of file names and their location (see HP48 implementaion for details). Files are just written to a flat storage space and structure is imposed via directory lists. It would be interesting and instructive to work on such a program, it doesn't need a GUI to start with, and in the end it may even give you some appreciation for Cyrille's ranking of that feature

Have fun with it,
~Mark

I think this can as viewed as a a compelling reason why a directory structure is badly needed- Structure, the clue is in the word... Certainly the program file directory does. It's unrelated to the app paradym and is currently just a disorganised flat list and the reason most people complain. Of course, it could be written by users in PPL, just as the missing RPN functionality can be worked around, but its the job of the UI to do this!

And the app icons needs subdirs even apple realise this on the iphone just try navigating your phone with a flat sea of icons (add your own punctuation if you feel this sentence needs structure)

/Steve

Maybe a cool invention was wheel, but cooler was the structure for ordering things, folders,...

** Moderator note ** pictures of folders removed to clean up post. -- Gene

[pier4r]

dmmaster could you make the pictures smaller? thanks.

[Stevetuc]

(05-15-2018 10:40 AM)pier4r Wrote:  dmmaster could you make the pictures smaller? thanks.

Or put them in folders? All on same top level sheesssh!

[compsystems]

reinventing the wheel

https://www.prozesa.com/tag/rueda/

[pier4r]

(05-15-2018 11:04 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  

(05-15-2018 10:40 AM)pier4r Wrote:  dmmaster could you make the pictures smaller? thanks.

Or put them in folders? All on same top level sheesssh!

[im.g]https://ma-kasse.dk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Busy-cavemen_860.jpg[/img]

It is not funny, and you know it.

[Stevetuc]

(05-15-2018 07:02 PM)pier4r Wrote:  

(05-15-2018 11:04 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Or put them in folders? All on same top level sheesssh!

[im.g]https://ma-kasse.dk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Busy-cavemen_860.jpg[/img]

It is not funny, and you know it.

Apologies, I meant no offense. Sadly, I do find it mildly amusing.

[cyrille de brébisson]

Hello,

Actually, folders/tree architectures are "natural" for us ONLY because they have been used in computers for so long...

But they are a bad analogy to real life where we mostly thing in graphs with no "root" or top level and multiple ways to access a particual set of data.

Folders are used in computers because they are easy to implement and work with on the computers, not because they are "natural"...

You can verify what I am saying by asking kids, who have much less experience with "folders" as they work on tablets, phones and other systems with no user visible directory architectures. You will see that for them these are not that natural.


I DO agree that the current Prime system does NOT scale well when they are a lot of apps/programs/notes... and this is somehting that we will need to deal with at some point (probably in a way similar to the one choosen by apple/android, ie: a visual grouping of data set).

Just out of interest, how many apps/programs/notes do you have on your calculator at this point in time?

Cyrille

[Arno K]

I have about 70 programs, 25 cas-functions and 5 apps on the calc, most programs only to have them at hand when needed.
Arno

[Stevetuc]

(05-16-2018 05:04 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote:  Hello,

Actually, folders/tree architectures are "natural" for us ONLY because they have been used in computers for so long...

But they are a bad analogy to real life where we mostly thing in graphs with no "root" or top level and multiple ways to access a particual set of data.

....

Cyrille

I agree they have been used in computers for so long, but only because researchers like the Xerox Parc team tried to find a metaphor for real life - the folders that every office has used to organise paper long before computers (actually a "computer" was originally a person), and without folders you just have big pile of paper that you need to sort through..folders are a natural solution to that.
The original iphone had no folders, that had to change for the same reason.

I have around 50 programs , 5 apps and maybe 30 notes (used as input to runmacro via aslist)