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Fungus · 06-08-2018, 08:01 PM

I just saw this image on here the other day:

[Image: hp15sa.jpg]

My first reaction was, "Yes, please!!!"

RPN makes a squillion times more sense if you can see the stack contents. A multi-line display on a Voyager series would be awesome.

Obviously HP isn't going to make one but I was wondering if the guys at Swiss Micro might. AFAIK he does his calculators via. an emulator and a copy of the original HP ROM. It would be difficult for them to add new functions to a calculator but it should be easy to do a multi-line display using the emulator's copy of the CPU registers.

A multi-line 11C with smooth animated up-down scrolling of the stack registers as I type? I could be very tempted by that.

(and I'm sure a lot of die-hard HP owners who insist on the real thing and wouldn't normally go for a clone could, too...)

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw an idea out there in case somebody from Swiss Micro ever reads this.

nb. Yes, I have ideas on how to do the scrolling.

brickviking · 06-09-2018, 10:26 AM

I'm actually somewhat impressed by that, however I'd venture to say the die-hards among us might disagree. I could also see a very strong case for pushing the 12C-ML, as this seems to be a good place where you could have a multi-line stack, even if it's only three out of the four stack levels.

Nice spotting!

(Post 242)

Steve Simpkin · 06-10-2018, 07:07 AM

It's not a horizontal form factor but the DM42 does show the entire stack and more.
http://www.finetune.co.jp/~lyuka/interes...-hp42s.jpg

Fungus · 06-10-2018, 10:05 AM

(06-10-2018 07:07 AM)Steve Simpkin Wrote: It's not a horizontal form factor but the DM42 does show the entire stack...

It's the next logical stop for an RPN calculator after you attach a multiline display to it.

I really like the horizontal format calculators though. They seem far more ergonomic to me. They fit better on a table and two-thumb typing is much faster in the hands. :-)

Basically I just thought I'd throw the idea out there and see what happens.I have no idea if this is commercially worth doing or not, just because I'd be interested doesn't mean anybody else would be.

On a practical level It seems like an easy way for somebody like Swiss Micro to really add value to HP Voyager calculators without the pain of writing a new firmware.

**rprosperi** · 06-10-2018, 01:01 PM

(06-10-2018 10:05 AM)Fungus Wrote: On a practical level It seems like an easy way for somebody like Swiss Micro to really add value to HP Voyager calculators without the pain of writing a new firmware.

Creating a multi-line Voyager in fact would require writing new firmware; the existing DM-1x machines run the original ROMs in emulated hardware. Being able to display additional lines would require lots of changes and the source code is not available, so it's virtually impossible to do. A nice idea though.

Thomas Radtke · 06-10-2018, 02:11 PM

I wonder why it was called 15S. The 15C has brought non-menu, 7-segment character calculators really to the highest possible degree while maintaining user friendlyness. Doesn't make much sense to evolve something from it.

It appears to be more like an RPL-approach.

**rprosperi** · 06-10-2018, 02:22 PM

(06-10-2018 02:11 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote: I wonder why it was called 15S. The 15C has brought non-menu, 7-segment character calculators really to the highest possible degree while maintaining user friendlyness. Doesn't make much sense to evolve something from it.

It appears to be more like an RPL-approach.

The "S" was for Scientific. By the time this was created, "Constant"/"Continuous" memory could be assumed.

As this design came from Walter, it is certain that it's not in any way RPL. This was an early concept when the core 34S design was looking for a new target machine, well before the DM42 was known to be coming.

emece67 · (This post was last modified: 06-10-2018 04:33 PM by emece67.)

Not the same aspect ratio but, well, some WIP here.

The display is a 128x64 one.

**rprosperi** · 06-10-2018, 06:05 PM

(06-10-2018 04:31 PM)emece67 Wrote: Not the same aspect ratio but, well, some WIP here.

Very interesting indeed. Most primary key assignments are clear, however what is "LB" ? It's likely a primary key would not be used for 'pounds' so maybe Log to some Base?

Dieter · 06-10-2018, 06:12 PM

(06-10-2018 06:05 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Very interesting indeed. Most primary key assignments are clear, however what is "LB" ? It's likely a primary key would not be used for 'pounds' so maybe Log to some Base?

lb (or ld) is a common symbol for the base-2 logarithm.
The 34s has a lb key as well as a key for a base-x log.

Dieter

Fungus · (This post was last modified: 06-10-2018 10:58 PM by Fungus.)

(06-10-2018 01:01 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(06-10-2018 10:05 AM)Fungus Wrote: On a practical level It seems like an easy way for somebody like Swiss Micro to really add value to HP Voyager calculators without the pain of writing a new firmware.

Creating a multi-line Voyager in fact would require writing new firmware; the existing DM-1x machines run the original ROMs in emulated hardware. Being able to display additional lines would require lots of changes and the source code is not available, so it's virtually impossible to do. A nice idea though.

The whole point is that it wouldn't need any firmware change. The contents of the X,Y and Z registers will be visible to the emulator, all you need to do is display them.

**rprosperi** · 06-10-2018, 11:20 PM

(06-10-2018 10:55 PM)Fungus Wrote: The whole point is that it wouldn't need any firmware change. The contents of the X,Y and Z registers will be visible to the emulator, all you need to do is display them.

I may be wrong, but I think that's naïve. The 15C firmware's XYZ&T 'registers' contain binary data (actually BCD, the point is it is not stored the same way it's displayed), which the 15C f/w formats for display in the LCD. How would the hardware emulator layer read, re-format and display multiple registers simultaneously with the 15C f/w running? That is not possible with a Nut emulator, that would require a dramatically more sophisticated system.

Didier Lachieze · 06-10-2018, 11:47 PM

(06-10-2018 11:20 PM)rprosperi Wrote: How would the hardware emulator layer read, re-format and display multiple registers simultaneously with the 15C f/w running? That is not possible with a Nut emulator, that would require a dramatically more sophisticated system.

Go41cx does just that and displays Y, Z, T and L above X:

What I would like to see also is instructions mnemonics in program mode instead of key codes, as on Go15c:

But program editing on a multi-line display may be challenging.

**rprosperi** · 06-11-2018, 12:54 AM

(06-10-2018 11:47 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote: Go41cx does just that and displays Y, Z, T and L above X:

Exactly! And go41cx is dramatically more sophisticated than the Nut emulation in the SM DM1x machines, which is what was proposed. Of course it is possible, anything is, but there is no "easy way" to do so as suggested.

Thanks for part 2 Didier, I did not know that go15C displayed instruction mnemonics. May have to add another of Olivier's emulators to my Android phone. This alone makes it better than the HP emulator.

Thomas Radtke · 06-11-2018, 06:27 AM

(06-10-2018 02:22 PM)rprosperi Wrote: As this design came from Walter, it is certain that it's not in any way RPL.

For sure. Stacking objects instead of numbers only was an RPL feature if I'm not mistaken. I didn't meant the stack lifting mechanics but the OS. Wasn't the 42S based on RPL, just with the crippled RPN entry? Big Grin

Steve Simpkin · 06-11-2018, 08:47 AM

(06-11-2018 06:27 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:
(06-10-2018 02:22 PM)rprosperi Wrote: As this design came from Walter, it is certain that it's not in any way RPL.
For sure. Stacking objects instead of numbers only was an RPL feature if I'm not mistaken. I didn't meant the stack lifting mechanics but the OS. Wasn't the 42S based on RPL, just with the crippled RPN entry?

Can anyone confirm that System RPL was used as the internal programming development language for *all* Saturn based HPs (including the entire Pioneer series)? I believe this to be the case but I can't seem to find documented confirmation of this.

Thomas Radtke · 06-11-2018, 09:10 AM

(06-10-2018 11:47 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote: What I would like to see also is instructions mnemonics in program mode instead of key codes, as on Go15c:

That would be a nice extension. I imagine converting the displayed codes when PRGM is on would do it.

Fungus · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2018 11:59 AM by Fungus.)

(06-10-2018 11:20 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(06-10-2018 10:55 PM)Fungus Wrote: The whole point is that it wouldn't need any firmware change. The contents of the X,Y and Z registers will be visible to the emulator, all you need to do is display them.

I may be wrong, but I think that's naïve. The 15C firmware's XYZ&T 'registers' contain binary data (actually BCD, the point is it is not stored the same way it's displayed), which the 15C f/w formats for display in the LCD.

Data format isn't a problem. One of the reasons for using BCD in the first place is that it's easy to display (it's actually a lot harder for the computer to to compute with than binary).

(06-10-2018 11:20 PM)rprosperi Wrote: How would the hardware emulator layer read, re-format and display multiple registers simultaneously with the 15C f/w running? That is not possible with a Nut emulator, that would require a dramatically more sophisticated system.

Anything is possible with the Nut emulator. It's software.

From what I've seen the Nut CPU is one chip (LF5)and the ROM/RAM/display driver is on another chip (LE2). All you need to do is detect when the display chip is being accessed and do the x+Y+Z registers at the same time.

If the Swiss Micro calculators are working then they already detected when the X register is being converted to displayable data. ie. The job is 99% done.

Thomas Radtke · 06-11-2018, 12:00 PM

(06-11-2018 09:39 AM)Fungus Wrote: Data format isn't a problem. One of the reasons for using BCD in the first place is that it's easy to display (it's actually a lot harder for the computer to to compute with than binary).

If there are flags indicating the display mode along with a Nibble holding the number of decimal places at a known position, I imagine it's easily possible.

Robert VM · 06-11-2018, 12:06 PM

(06-11-2018 12:54 AM)rprosperi Wrote: Thanks for part 2 Didier, I did not know that go15C displayed instruction mnemonics. May have to add another of Olivier's emulators to my Android phone. This alone makes it better than the HP emulator.

Looks like the go1xC have disappeared from google play.