HP Prime vs TI-84 Plus CE for Jr. High and High School

[JDW]

I'm an HP guy, having started off with a 28S in engineering school from 1989-1994 (I'm an EE). I later purchased a 48GX with FRAM card and a 50g. I have never used a Prime though. I personally love RPN and hate using Algebraic calculators. I took my SAT before I had the 28S and used just a very basic calculator. With that said, my kids are in a different world. I have a 7th grader and a 10th grader this coming August school year. I have them in a private school in Japan, which teaches primarily in English with a US-based curriculum. The information packet that was just sent out to parents says that "a TI-83 Plus graphic calculator is STRONGLY recommended."

I'm not well versed in TI calculators, but a bit of Googling shows the TI-83 Plus came out in 1999! Either the math instructor is out of date or he himself owns a TI-83 Plus and demands all his students have one, or perhaps he mistakenly mean to say "TI-84 Plus CE." For now I will assume the latter, since the CE came out in 2015 and is therefore fairly modern.

Again, being an HP enthusiast, I am curious how easy it would be for a 7th or 10th grader to pick up an HP Prime and get started quickly using it (within having to read a huge manual first) versus the ease of using a TI-84 Plus CE.

The TI-84 Plus CE lacks CAS; and even though it is on the CollegeBoard approved list, some math teachers may not like the fact some calculators have CAS. But from what I understand, the Prime allows CAS to be disabled?

Anyway, I am curious about the topic of "ease of use" for 7th to 10th graders. The cost of the Prime on Amazon US is roughly that of the TI-84 Plus CE! Yet the Prime seems like a more full-featured calculator to me. Then again, I am biased. And of course, I am writing in this forum so I will likely get biased answers, but I feel comfortable around my fellow HP enthusiasts, so perhaps you could try to give me an objective opinion.

Thank you.

[grsbanks]

Good news. You can use the Prime in RPN mode! OK, its RPN mode does seem a bit like an afterthought bolted on after the machine was finished but at least it exists and I, for one, use it.

The Prime does indeed have an exam mode that is actually configurable to remove various bits of functionality such as CAS or keeping programs already stored in it visible.

Note that the Prime is programmed in a structured language similar to Pascal. Even though there is an RPN input mode, you can't program the Prime in RPN keystroke or in RPL for that matter. Only in HP-PPL.

Try the "Virtual Prime" emulator first. The Windows version is available from here: https://www.hpcalc.org/details/7468

For what it's worth, the Connectivity Kit that comes with the Prime stands head and shoulders above TI-Connect used with the TI-84 family of calculators.

[JDW]

Thank you for the reply, but again, the calculator is not going to be for me, and therefore my personal love for RPN is not relevant to this discussion. I am also not too concerned about connectivity kits. I am talking about my children who are adept in Algebraic mode calculators and who prefer them, and who's school is "strongly recommending" the TI-83 Plus, for reasons that are beyond my comprehension.

Until now, my daughter has been using the following CASIO calculator which cost all of $15 and her math teachers didn't complain about it and she seems to be comfortable using it:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00AFN7MIA/

But like I said in my opening post, the school has just now started to STRONGLY RECOMMEND the TI-83 Plus, hence my post here.

The Prime is probably overkill for 7th to 10th graders in terms of power and features, but in terms of COST, the TI-83 Plus and TI-84 Plus CE are about the same price and in the same ballpark as the HP Prime! To me, that just shows how much of a monopolistic lock TI still has on the US market for calculators. So in my frugal engineer's mind, I am saying to myself, "If the 20 year old TI-83 Plus and equally out-of-date TI-84 Plus cost about as much as the Prime, why NOT get the Prime instead?" It would be going against the school's recommendation, of course. But the Prime is on the CollegeBoard website of approved calculators so I don't see it as being a problem.

But again, my question centers on EASE OF USE for Jr. High and High School students. Is it really prudent of me as a parent to follow the school's STRONG RECOMMENDATION of a TI-83 Plus (or a TI-84 Plus CE) rather than buy what I see as a better calculator like the Prime? Would the Prime be more formidable in terms of usage for a 7th grader to use than a TI-83 Plus, for example? Are there any high school students even using the Prime?

[Thomas Klemm]

Relevant XKCD:

[JDW]

So much for hoping for objective and detailed opinions.

:-(

[DrD]

(07-07-2018 08:22 AM)JDW Wrote:  But again, my question centers on EASE OF USE for Jr. High and High School students.

America is concerned about tariff wars causing difficulties with foreign product supply chains. One thing, often cited, is that Americans aren't smart enough to compete, intellectually, with our other world brotheren. This is a problem because we then have to 'import' intellectual capacity, (at reduced labor cost), in order for our technology-based world leadership to thrive. So maybe you should consider the hp prime, "EASE OF USE for Jr. High and High School students," from the opposite perspective:

"Is your Jr. High and High School student, able to function with an easy to use foreign product such as the prime, or TI-83 / 84?" It requires some investment in time to ascend the learning curve, and many American Jr. High and High School students, perceive that they don't have the time, and don't see the need to learn anything beyond that which doesn't provide immediate return value.

Do you want your Jr. High and High School student to be smarter, or just 'get by' with the flavor of the day? Let's face it, Jr. High, and High School wasn't really that hard, looking back on it. It took only four years to complete high school, if one barely tried. Then came the rest of life, where competing for a satisfactory career, based on using the acquired knowledge, skills, and abilities, was the trade off for the pursuit of excellence, (or) reliance on anarchy, and whatever other American "values" they might want to 'identify' with.

American students don't get a good education these days. They only get a minimum education. Jr. High and High School students, need opportunity, encouragement, and good parenting, if they are to have any reasonable expectation of being able to successfully navigate ALL of life's challenges. Only buy the prime for your student, IF you want it to be part of a bigger, interactive, investment in the success of your child. Otherwise, there will be plenty of time for life's cavalcade of crap to direct their journey downhill, as the 'get by' student jumps from one life dilemma to another. Your student is already lucky, in that you are an engineer, and inherently know these things. So if you are able to parent your child using the best tools available, payback will be returned when you reach the golden years, and your student has love, respect, and the ability to look back on their own years with a feeling of pride for your "mutual" investment in them at this point in time!

[Tim Wessman]

In nearly every conceivable metric Prime is better. You however know your daughter. Is she going to be frustrated if the teacher hands out a "you do math by pressing these sequences of keys" type of document? Yes, unfortunately there are still educators like that in the world.

I am biased of course, but the success stories I hear of schools that have switched and seen math scores go up, understanding go up, and excitement about math has been pretty much constant across the board.

Have her download the free app version and go through the quick start guide together. If you decide to go with Prime, know that there is the possibility at some point a teacher will freak out and ban it.

Maybe the will be impressed that it speaks Japanese...

[JDW]

Tim and DrD,

Thank you for posting the more pointed and well-thought-out opinions I was looking for.

My daughter (age 15) honestly doesn't know what is best. She only expressed her concern that, regardless of the TI-83 Plus being 20 years old, she said her teacher has one and is pushing that calculator and therefore if my daughter bought that model and then had any issues, she thinks her teacher could hand-hold her through the process of learning it. She is by no means a nerd or tech junky, so she is not one to have great enthusiasm (like I do) in getting to know the inner workings of tech. She seems to feel comforted in knowing she would be pleasing her teacher by getting the recommended model.

And THAT, my friends, would appear to be how TI has its death grip on education in the USA. Scary stuff.

So it really boils down to me liking the Prime more, me having experience with HP products and liking them, and me noting that the Prime is actually cheaper than the "modern" equivalent of the TI-83 Plus -- the TI-84 Plus CE. (I'm talking about prices on Amazon in the USA, not the outrageous prices I see for the Prime and TI calculators here on Amazon Japan.) Makes no sense whatsoever in my mind to pay more for a vastly inferior product. (I see the Prime as superior.) But that thinking doesn't magically change the situation for my daughter. So I have to consider her wants, needs and fears while making the best recommendation I can.

Thank you, gentlemen, for kindly offering me your thoughts.

[sasa]

"Strong recommendation" is usually a "politically correct" phrase if someone forces one particular thing from any reason.

If they use old books showing exactly how to solve described problems on particular calculator models, thus forcing specific model is "justified", in order to get exact result without much side learning for students how to accomplish the same on other similarly capable calculator.

I can think as well importance of limited usage of calculator on exams and ability of teachers to deactivate higher functions of different modern calculator models. Even these are "approved" to be used, I doubt all teachers are capable or skilled enough to perform such limitations for all students on many models and may be easier to forbid usage of some models during exam.

If all upper is not a problem, it may just be on your kids choice. Of course, it is far more better if kids ask their teachers of opinion and explanation why exactly one specific model is "strongly recommended" and possibility to use other "approved" models.

I have also read that TI calculators was/are #1 used brand in U.S.A. educational system.

However, without knowing exact reason why they force specific model, it is fairly difficult to bring any rational decision.

[JDW]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, sasa.

Kids in K-12 honestly do NOT care much about calculators. They really don't. I certainly didn't when I was in high school. But that all changed when I started college, and that was when I purchased my first HP -- the 28S, for my EE classes. I went to high school in the 1980's, and because I was in a private school, there wasn't a push for students to buy any one calculator. In fact, as I recall, my math instructors wanted me to use my brain, not a calculator to figure out most of the math. I don't even remember what calculator I used in high school. It might not even have been a scientific calculator.

My kids are no different. They just grow worried about what their teachers expect of them. They don't really care about the calculator, except perhaps my daughter who said to me, "So long as I can get it in pink or mint..." But as a father who is well versed in math and HP calculators, like many of you, I am biased and have strong opinions. It would be easy for me to plunk down the ¥15500 Amazon Japan asks for the ridiculously overpriced and ancient TI-83 Plus that my children's school "STRONGLY recommends" but something inside me says, "Wow, this is nuts. That much for 20 year old calculator tech that's vastly inferior to my preferred HP brand?" And on the other hand, I have my daughter distraught over what her teacher might do in class if she brought in a non-recommended calculator (especially one NOT in pink), only to find the teacher throw up her hands in class saying, "Sorry, I don't know that calculator so figure it out yourself and do it fast because I am assigning a lot of homework tonight that requires a calculator." For younger kids, (yes, compared to us, even high-schoolers are "younger kids") that sort of thing can be very intimidating. Consider how much "mind control" is taking place while reading what this teacher from Texas says about HP calculators versus TI:

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-HP-Prime-go...-and-above

So while all my dialog in this thread thus far may indicate I am leaning toward bowing my head and just doing what the math instructor wants, I have not decided yet. I sent the school an email asking for their reasoning for "STRONGLY recommending" at 20 year old calculator that still sells for an outrageous price. Most likely they will say something about it being in the text books and say something about the math instructor owning one and all that. Regardless, I will decide what to do at that point.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.

[sasa]

(07-07-2018 01:19 PM)JDW Wrote:  Consider how much "mind control" is taking place while reading what this teacher from Texas says about HP calculators versus TI:

Nothing much to add on all upper... Older teachers are not quite flexible people nor ready for change and younger teachers are forced to strictly obey established rules.

In my high school time, (even comparing nowadays CAS capable calculators, not existed in that time) plain 10-digit scientific calculators was rare and extremely expensive. And more of that, usage of any calculator was forbidden during exams...

I hope you will avoid unpleasant moments with old teachers and old school management with only one argument if they insist : "Museum specimen is overpriced (probably in suspicious working condition), discontinued 15 years ago and you have approved list of other modern models". If they insist, but do not gave or leash for free TI-83 for each student, they are breaking several fundamental human rights, sanctioned by law in many countries. Thus, I do not think is too much problem to buy any suitable calculator approved in written and signed form by school management.

All this is under so called "Calculator policy" and may also be interesting to read about, for instance:

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.or...tor-policy
https://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/exams/calcula...policy.pdf

[JDW]

Of course the school allows the use of any calculator, and the only limitations are those on the CollegeBoard list (which you linked to, and which even the school links for parents to review) when taking the SAT or ACT. So it's obviously best if the student gets familiar with an approved calculator well in advance of the test. However, like I said previously, teachers tend to teach what they are familiar with. So students who buy calculator that the teacher recommends get lots of help from the teacher. But students who buy other calculators, even CollegeBoard approved ones, are allowed to use them, of course, but that does not mean they will get any help at all from the teacher regarding those calculators. In other words, like I said before, when you as a student buy a calculator that is not "recommended" you are on your own. And for geeky men like me, that's not a big issue as I am happy to study on my own if I see an advantage in doing so. But for younger kids in Jr. High and High School, especially girls who are not necessarily enthusiastic about math in the first place, going against a teacher's recommendation is a fearful thing.

So in making the final purchasing decision I am balancing my own personal preferences (the like of the HP Prime) with cost and with the feelings of my children. They have to contend with their teacher each day while I do not. And if most of the class is using a TI calculator, even one that should be dead and buried, kids often feel somewhat of an outcast if they are forging a different path. So in the end it is a rather complex decision that I do not take lightly.

Anyway, my thanks to everyone who has kindly shared their thoughts and advice.

[mfleming]

(07-07-2018 02:12 PM)sasa Wrote:  Older teachers are not quite flexible people nor ready for change and younger teachers are forced to strictly obey established rules.

Might not hurt to just sit down with the teacher and ask him/her "Why the older TI? Why not the newer TI? What if a different calculator altogether?"

[sasa]

I understand your concern completely.

However, from my point of view, all is clear: if school approve in written form what models of calculators are suitable, that automatically means that all teachers are obligated to be familiar with.

Of course, as we both wrote, teachers are not quite flexible in general, then only the best is that kids asks their teachers what models they prefer in order to be able to gives appropriate help.

All the best in final decision which would be in the best interest for kids.

[grsbanks]

Here's a thought.

How long would it take *you* to become familiar with the Prime? If you could, then instead of turning to her teacher for help, she could turn to you. This could help her outperform her classmates and get the teacher to understand that he's being a bit of a dinosaur by all but obliging students to use a far inferior product.

[roadrunner]

My kids school required the TI-84 plus. I got them TI n-spire's with the ti-84+ keyboard but it turns out they like the more complicated nspire keyboard better. Not all kids take the easiest path.

You can get TI-83+'s on ebay for $10 or $15; hundreds of them. Consider getting the prime and an 83+ from ebay as a backup if the school says she can't use the prime.

-road

[JDW]

How long would it take me to learn the Prime, in light of the fact I've been an HP calculator enthusiast since my 28S in 1989? Probably not long, but my workplace is 1.5 hours from home and I get home late. My daughter especially usually has her homework done by then, and she extensively collaborates with her classmates online during that time, and even with her teacher. If she relied on me, it would not be as good a situation as if she had active help from her teacher and other classmates who also used the same calculator. You could argue "that would only be until she has learned the calculator," but in light of the complexity of this advanced calculators, that would probably take more than a couple semesters of a school year.

That's not to say I am avoiding buying the Prime though. I am just typing out what is running through my mind. So thank you for the suggestion.

As to the suggestion that I should be a used and cheap TI calculator along with the Prime, that is a consideration when sellers are willing to ship to me here in Japan, and at a decent shipping rate. Not all EBAY sellers do that, and some charge a cheap price for the actual product but then stab you for the shipping. But thank you for the suggestion as I shall consider that.

I would also like to mention that I've been chatting with some calculator reviewers on YouTube, getting their advice. One fellow suggested Numworks, but in my mind that is the same situation as getting a Prime over the teacher-recommended TI. Anything other than the TI would be support and calculator teaching that I would need to deal with. I am not opposed to it, but I may not be able to offer that advice to my kids at the very moment they need the assistance, and honestly, I would prefer them not staying up to the wee hours of the night doing homework only because they needed to wait for me to get home to ask questions.

Again, thank you for your input. I find it very helpful.

[Tim Wessman]

I would avoid the numworks... It really is extremely limited in functionality. They have some extremely basic interfaces that are good if you happen to need exactly and only what it was designed for, but they don't go past that. They are even more limited then the 20 year old 83...

[JDW]

Thank you, Tim.

In all honesty, I am currently only mulling the HP Prime versus the TI-83 Plus or TI-84 Plus CE.

If you don't mind my asking, Tim, how does HP get schools to "think different" (to borrow from Apple) in terms of being more open-minded about their calculator recommendations and calculator assistance to Jr. High and High School students? Most US schools stubbornly stick with TI and TI alone, even though there are better devices out there like the Prime. How does HP make inroads into schools with the Prime when teachers so very strongly embrace the TI-series, especially a calculator they themselves own and have taught with for years, and when these teachers teach from math textbooks that sometimes show pictures of TI calculators and give specific instructions on using them? How does HP overcome that huge barrier to any calculator other than TI, or at least how does HP try to overcome that?

I ask because as a parent I feel a bit like I'm in an awkward position where my hands are tied. Sure, the Prime is on the CollegeBoard list of approved calculators, and sure my kids could step outside the recommendations and just study the Prime on their own. But peer pressure is strong, and so if the rest of their peers are using TI and following the teacher's recommendations, you as a young student feel like an outcast if you have something different, even if what you have is technically better. It's like you are being strong-armed into compliance, and parents of such kids are hesitant to just say, "Don't worry about that and just be independent and choose what's best." It's easy for us parents to say that when we aren't in our kids shoes. Kids are just concerned about pleasing their teacher so they can get the best grades possible with the least resistance.

Thanks.

[Steve Simpkin]

Some articles explaining why the 20+ year old TI-83 hasn't changed and still costs so much.
https://m.mic.com/articles/125829/your-o....rx7Zhxkgu
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/jwherrm...ll-cost-so
http://mentalfloss.com/article/73831/why...-expensive

I suspect the teacher "strongly recommends" this model because they know how to use it step-by-step for the various problems in their curriculum. This model is likely illustrated in their text books too. A student using another model may run into difficulties following the steps in problems that are show how to be solved using a TI-83.

As much as I hate to admit it, your children will probably have an easier time in that class if you get the "strongly recommended" TI-83 Plus. You might ask their teacher why they recommend this model but I suspect it is all of the above.