HP-71B Software for navigation

[Erwin]

Hello,

I'm looking for software:

• Tracking and position estimation
• Distance and Bearing to Mark or Way Point,
• Downwind Sailing
• Fix from Celestial Lines of Position
• Great circle and rhumbline navigation
• Dead reckoning
• and so on
  

Does anybody know if there exist a software for the HP-71B? Would be great

best regards from Austria
Erwin

[Erwin]

(02-05-2019 05:49 PM)Erwin Wrote:  Hello,

I'm looking for software:

• Tracking and position estimation
• Distance and Bearing to Mark or Way Point,
• Downwind Sailing
• Fix from Celestial Lines of Position
• Great circle and rhumbline navigation
• Dead reckoning
• and so on
  

Does anybody know if there exist a software for the HP-71B? Would be great

best regards from Austria
Erwin

Hello,

meanwhile I found a program for navigation from PPC Paris. It's in french and I couldn't find any explanation. I'll try to translate the comments with the help of Google and see if it's clearer.
Couldn't find a contact to the author: "Francois le Grand" - looks like it's not the real name. Would be fine to get in contact with him. Or any other ideas?

best regards
Erwin

[SlideRule]

If you have access to HP Hewlett Packard HP-41 Translator Pac for HP-71B Module Manual Overlay 82490A then HP-41 navigation programs are a plausible option.

BEST!
SlideRule

[Didier Lachieze]

(04-11-2019 08:43 PM)Erwin Wrote:  meanwhile I found a program for navigation from PPC Paris. It's in french and I couldn't find any explanation. I'll try to translate the comments with the help of Google and see if it's clearer.
Couldn't find a contact to the author: "Francois le Grand" - looks like it's not the real name.

Well it is the real name and you can find the description (in french) of the program in the JPC n°30 from December 1985, page for 10. JPC was the PPC-Paris journal and pdf files are available here.

[Erwin]

(04-12-2019 03:06 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  

(04-11-2019 08:43 PM)Erwin Wrote:  meanwhile I found a program for navigation from PPC Paris. It's in french and I couldn't find any explanation. I'll try to translate the comments with the help of Google and see if it's clearer.
Couldn't find a contact to the author: "Francois le Grand" - looks like it's not the real name.

Well it is the real name and you can find the description (in french) of the program in the JPC n°30 from December 1985, page for 10. JPC was the PPC-Paris journal and pdf files are available here.

Many thanks for the hints - also to SLIDERULE. I made a download of the document and OCR'd it (with some others too - to make them searchable in PDF), then made a translation in english and german - maybe not perfect but a beginning (if there are any ideas to complete the transaction that would be fine). Document is attached. By the way great program!!

Next step will be to translate the menu points in the program itself - I'm not sure if in english or german (my native language :-)).

best regards and many thanks for your help
Erwin

It's great

EDIT (2019/04/21): Made an update to the description (V2) and translate the program into english - but I'm not sure if it is allowed to put it in the forum cause I'm not the author. If it is allowed I'll share it in the forum.

EDIT: (2019/04/25) Removed old DOKU - new one in the next posts
This all would not be possible without the PIL-Box and PILPER - many thanks to their developers.

[Erwin]

Hi,

made an update to my previous post

regards
Erwin

[rprosperi]

(04-21-2019 02:32 PM)Erwin Wrote:  Hi,

made an update to my previous post

regards
Erwin

Thanks for the update.

After making reasonable attempts to contact the author for permission (e.g. this posting is one, doing an internet search by author's name another) folks often will post such programs with a note stating "I tried but could not contact the author for permission, however if the author objects to this being shared here, I will remove this material immediately" or words to that effect.

Both checking and posting such comments are the right things to do, however it's very unlikely anyone would object after such a long time, particularly since it was originally published in a public document in the first place.

[Erwin]

(04-21-2019 03:26 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(04-21-2019 02:32 PM)Erwin Wrote:  Hi,

made an update to my previous post

regards
Erwin

Thanks for the update.

After making reasonable attempts to contact the author for permission (e.g. this posting is one, doing an internet search by author's name another) folks often will post such programs with a note stating "I tried but could not contact the author for permission, however if the author objects to this being shared here, I will remove this material immediately" or words to that effect.

Both checking and posting such comments are the right things to do, however it's very unlikely anyone would object after such a long time, particularly since it was originally published in a public document in the first place.

Hi,

thanks for the information - I'll try it in this way. For me it is different to translate a posting or a copyright program - maybe the author doesn't like his program be translated. But I'll check it and will then update the post.

The program itself I'll test on a sailing in summer besides the other available instruments on the sailing boat :-)

best regards
Erwin

[rprosperi]

(04-21-2019 03:32 PM)Erwin Wrote:  Hi,

thanks for the information - I'll try it in this way. For me it is different to translate a posting or a copyright program - maybe the author doesn't like his program be translated. But I'll check it and will then update the post.

The program itself I'll test on a sailing in summer besides the other available instruments on the sailing boat :-)

best regards
Erwin

Great, we look forward to seeing it, as well as how accurate it is for your trip.

If the original author should happen to see this, I expect his reply would be more like "thanks" than an objection.

[Erwin]

(04-21-2019 03:37 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(04-21-2019 03:32 PM)Erwin Wrote:  Hi,

thanks for the information - I'll try it in this way. For me it is different to translate a posting or a copyright program - maybe the author doesn't like his program be translated. But I'll check it and will then update the post.

The program itself I'll test on a sailing in summer besides the other available instruments on the sailing boat :-)

best regards
Erwin

Great, we look forward to seeing it, as well as how accurate it is for your trip.

If the original author should happen to see this, I expect his reply would be more like "thanks" than an objection.

I made a fast look on the internet and there are countless number of people with this name (ie. Facebook overview). The only thing is a assistent prof but he seems to be to young (https://www.em-lyon.com/en/faculty-resea...s-LE-GRAND)

[SlideRule]

The publication referenced in (HP-67) Sun Pointing Programs & their Accuracy [ HP Software Libraries / HP-65/67/97 Software Library] should be of interest; great documentation!

Best!
SlideRule

[Erwin]

(04-21-2019 11:54 PM)SlideRule Wrote:  The publication referenced in (HP-67) Sun Pointing Programs & their Accuracy [ HP Software Libraries / HP-65/67/97 Software Library] should be of interest; great documentation!

Best!
SlideRule

Thanks - indeed looks very interesting. It is focused on calculations on the sun - mainly to correct directions of parabol and so on, but with more theory in it. The HP71b program is good documented in the code, but without theory - which is set in advance.

regards
Erwin

[Erwin]

Hi,

now I tried how accurate the program is. I tested the part with the astro navigation - ephemerides (not that one with dead reckoning and great circle - I'll do it next time). It looks like the results are very different compared to the official data (see examples enclosed). I did the calculations also with the original version of the programs. Ephemerides are calculated with the EPIMENIS program. The data within could be the problem. Comparing the star figures:

• SIRIUS: 760 'SIR': DATA SIRIUS,-16.6722-.0361*(T2-.69),259.0542+.0158*(T2-.69)
• ANTARES: 920 'ANT': DATA ANTARES,-26.3647,113.1242
  

Example and comparison: Date 22. April 2019
  Navigation_Test.pdf (Size: 33.08 KB / Downloads: 13)

Sources for online calculations - the have the same results:

• Online almanac
• Nautical almanac
• Almanac
  

At a first view, the program can not be used with astro navigation in real world scenarios. I'll try to investigate it - but it's not easy cause there is no documentation about the used formulas.

Regards
Erwin

EDIT: 2019-04-23 MESZ So I give the program "EPIMENIS" a try. It is called from within the NAVIG program and it should be possible to enter ephemerides. But it is not clear how to do it - cause there is no explanation. The source - named in the program - is not available on the website of SHOM. So I don't have any idea how to fill this subprogram with other data.

All in all at the actual point of view only the part with 'dead reckoning', "great circle' and 'rhumb line' can be used without modifications.

EDIT: 2019-04-25 MESZ Update DOKU with the new version

[Erwin]

Hello,

fiddling around with the Ephemerides data - i didn't come close to a solution. Basically the navigation program consist of 3 programs.

• The main program
• Perpete program
• Epimenis program
  

the 2nd and 3rd program is necessary for doing astro navigation. In my previous post I compared the calculated parameters with those of online calculators (i.e. http://www.onboardintelligence.com/ or http://www.onboardintelligence.com/)- and it looks like that something ist wrong in the main program.

The Perpete program contains parameters for stars, moon, sun, ... but the data seems outdated and I can't find out how to update them. The source for the data used in this program is not available - only the web-site.
The easiest way would be to change the data in the program - like this from 1969:
0750 ! List of DATA containing the position of the stars in 1969
0760 'SIR': DATA SIRIUS,-16.6722-.0361*(T2-.69),259.0542+.0158*(T2-.69)
0770 'CAN': DATA CANOPUS,-52.6783,264.1854
0780 'VEG': DATA VEGA,38.7539,81.0279

For the planets exists calculations too. I tried to compare the data from the program to the nautical almanac from this year but can't find the data for this.

For
1170 'DIP': DATA DIPHDA,-18.1564,349.4917
1180 'HAM': DATA HAMAL,23.3167,328.645
1190 'KOC': DATA KOCHAB,74.2822,137.3058
The data comes close to the almanac data from 1.1.1969

The Epimenis program waits for input data of ephemerides and stores them in a data file, but no remarks how and in which way to input them. Ephemerides data ist available on the net i.e. here: http://www.tecepe.com or https://www.thenauticalalmanac.com

Has anybody an idea how to go further to use this navigation program?

I made an update oft he documentation (translation failures, WGS84 eccentricity) in my previous post. The translation in english of the main program will hopefully be finished on this weekend :-)

best regards
Erwin

[Erwin]

Till now I spent many hours to investigate the program. It has some other faults in the original program too - calculating mixed navigation, great circle navigation all ends in errors (about data type i.e.).
There are no other inputs from the community, it's a pity cause I love my HP71b for all my calculations and the program seems to be a "all in one" - but I stop my trying on this program cause for me it is to time consuming to do "reverse engineering" of the program. Additionally I couldn't find out the syntax for the ephemerides program to update it to the actual data.

Maybe I'll make a basic program for my needs (dead reckoning, great circle and rhumbline calculations) out of the known formulas. But no calculations with ephemerides and sextants on the HP71b.

A very good book with basic information and programs and explanations for the HP67 ist the "Calculator Navigation" from Mortimer Rogoff.
Another one a have is "The calculator afloat" from Henry Shufeldt. Both books include formulas and programs for RPN calculators - maybe I'll use my HP67 on my summer trip.

regards
Erwin

[SlideRule]

This reference might prove useful
[attachment=7225]
page 13 of the Armchair Celestial Navigator

BEST!
SlideRule

[Erwin]

(05-10-2019 12:05 PM)SlideRule Wrote:  This reference might prove useful

page 13 of the Armchair Celestial Navigator

BEST!
SlideRule

Yes that is what I'm "ending" at least :-) here the link, it's a pretty book.

Here the programs from the book "Calculator Navigation"

regards
Erwin

[Erwin]

(05-10-2019 11:31 AM)Erwin Wrote:  Till now I spent many hours to investigate the program. It has some other faults in the original program too - calculating mixed navigation, great circle navigation all ends in errors (about data type i.e.).
There are no other inputs from the community, it's a pity cause I love my HP71b for all my calculations and the program seems to be a "all in one" - but I stop my trying on this program cause for me it is to time consuming to do "reverse engineering" of the program. Additionally I couldn't find out the syntax for the ephemerides program to update it to the actual data.
[...]
regards
Erwin

The interpolator for ephemerides within the program is running with correct results but with wrong description ... it ask with the same timestamp but should present the rounded hour before (that is correct) and the rounded hour after the given time (this is wrong in the display. So it ist too buggy in my point of view. Others are "bad variables" kept in the RAM from previous calculations so I have to fill in a new line with "DESTROY ALL"
Cause I don't want to program the formulas I need in August on my sailing turn with friends I think to give the 41C Navigation PAC with my HP41 translator PAC in my HP71 a try. But I failed to install this with my PILBOX, it is a MOD-File from the HP41-DVD. Or is this not possible cause it is not a regular format on the HP71B?
Are there any documentation about how to manage this?

[Erwin]

Hello to all

Cause that I want to use my HP71b for my sailing trip in August I was looking for a software which fit my needs. The NAVIG program from PPC Paris has outdated ephemerides and my try to contact the author of this program was not successful. The main question was how to put new ephemerides in the program cause those one in the program are not valid anymore. The great circle calculations, dead reckoning, ... are running successful.

Next I tried the HP41 navigation program cause I have the FRAM71 and the HP41 Translator PC inside. So I gave it a try with the help of @rprosperi but as I see I have to dig deeper in the HP41 programming. I'll plan to do this in autumn.

So I was looking for another solution. I found an EXCEL program (SUNSIGHT) from www.backbearing.com and looked through the solution. It looks quite good for me cause for position estimation I want to use at first the sun with my sextant.

Next step was to transfer the EXCEL in HP71-BASIC. I did this this weekend and finished testing today. The results are the same as with testing data in EXCEL program so I'll use this on my trip and see how it's running in the daily use. This has the advantage that no paper for the sun's declination, GHA, etc is necessary and all calculations are done within the program. It is possible to draw the result on a navigation sheet use for dead reckoning (where I'll use the NAVIG program from PPC).

Please do not wondering about the code - for to have a quick "translation" I did this very close to the EXCEL program. If the program is well usable in practice I will optimise the code after my return. There is also no error protection - so if you try this be careful with the input data - I'm not responsible for wrong results or damages out of the use of the program.

EXCEL program, HP71 program code and some of the testing results are in this post. I got the permission from Andy of http://www.backbearing.com (as the intellectuel owner) to put the BASIC program on the HP forum and he also wrote back: "Would you believe my Excel program started out as a program for an HP calculator back in the 1980’s? Not in Basic, but Reverse Polish Notation"

best regards and thanks to those members (rprosperi, sliderule, Thomas Okken, Sylvain Cote, Didier Lachieze) supported me in looking for a solution. Feedback is very welcome.
Erwin

[Erwin]

Hello,

I tried data from the book "Astronavigation" from Bobby Schenk (it's in german and a very good description to steering by sun) page 62f and page 69. The results are the same - except a little difference in the Intercept 0,3 and 0,2 miles. That is while the EXCEL and the BASIC program accepts integers while Bobbyy Schenks data for the estimated ship position is with commas.

So I ended up with 10 different cases between 2000 and 2018 and they all gave valid results or respectively the same as the examples.

Input is the "assumed position" (longitude and latitude), Date, Time and sextant readings, height of eye, ... Result is the direction and distance to the "lines of position" from the "assumed position".
This results helps drawing the the "lines of position" on a navigation sheet.The crossing from 2 sextant readings (you need at a minimum 2 calculated lines) is the position where you are.
If the vessel is moving between the two sextant readings you have to take in account the estimated DR position for the second measurement.

So now that's clear for me - I can't awaiting the sailing trip.

best regards
Erwin