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frodesto · 07-24-2019, 08:52 PM

I recently bought a used HP-32Sii in very good condition. I noticed that the keycaps look different from other HP calculators I have seen from the same era. They keys have a flat top with visible "bulges" in the surface. Other keys I have seen have perfectly smooth surface and have a rounded top.

The serial number seems to indicate that the unit was produced in Singapore in 1992. I also have a newer HP-32Sii produced in Indonesia in 1998, this unit have smooth rounded keys.

Do all Singapore produced HP-32Sii calculator have these flat bulgy key caps?

striegel · 07-25-2019, 01:03 AM

(07-24-2019 08:52 PM)frodesto Wrote: ...
Do all Singapore produced HP-32Sii calculator have these flat bulgy key caps?

Not that I'm aware of. I have only one Singapore-made 32 S II with a serial number that starts with 3245S.

**rprosperi** · 07-25-2019, 02:52 AM

(07-24-2019 08:52 PM)frodesto Wrote: Do all Singapore produced HP-32Sii calculator have these flat bulgy key caps?

Please post a photo of this unit. "Flat" and "bulgy" are subjective, but a photo is seen the same by everyone and far easier to comment on.

frodesto · 07-25-2019, 09:03 AM

Thanks for replying. I have attached a photo of the keyboard.

mfleming · 07-25-2019, 03:09 PM

Imperfections in the injection mold process?

BartDB · 07-25-2019, 03:55 PM

Possibly double-shot vs. painted keys.

BartDB · 07-25-2019, 03:56 PM

(07-25-2019 09:03 AM)frodesto Wrote: Thanks for replying. I have attached a photo of the keyboard.

Is this the older unit? It looks like double-shot keys.

**rprosperi** · 07-25-2019, 05:25 PM

I agree with comments above, what you are seeing in these keys is a result of "double-shot" injection used during USA and early Singapore manufacturing, abandoned in later production lots, including probably all production from Indonesia.

I don't have 32SII as old as that one, but looking at other Pioneers from older to later than the dates you mention confirm the older double-shot units often have flatter and even somewhat uneven faces, as compared to the much smoother and rounder faces of the later keys with painted-on labels.

frodesto · 07-25-2019, 06:36 PM

Yes. This is the older one. It has a serial number that starts with 3202 (1992 week 2?)

I was not aware of the double-shot technology used on older units. I think you are right, my unit probably has these keys. I have looked at the keys with a loupe and the lettering does not appear to be printed on.

Thanks for helping me clear this up.

striegel · (This post was last modified: 07-25-2019 11:50 PM by striegel.)

To my eye, both of our machines have double-shot injection molded keys (apart from the shift keys). Perhaps your keys were produced near the end of a mold’s usable life? Could they have been worn down through heavy use?

Alan

**rprosperi** · 07-26-2019, 01:27 AM

(07-25-2019 11:49 PM)striegel Wrote: To my eye, both of our machines have double-shot injection molded keys (apart from the shift keys). Perhaps your keys were produced near the end of a mold’s usable life? Could they have been worn down through heavy use?

Alan

Yes, the molds do wear out and that could indeed be the cause. Keys made from worn molds are very common on Voyager machines (look closely at your V. keys with a loupe or simple magnifying glass), where you can also easily find keys that appear to have been shot once for 12C use, and the re-shot (somehow) for use on 11C/15C/16C use.

striegel · (This post was last modified: 07-26-2019 02:20 PM by striegel.)

(07-26-2019 01:27 AM)rprosperi Wrote: ...very common on Voyager machines (look closely at your V. keys with a loupe or simple magnifying glass), where you can also easily find keys that appear to have been shot once for 12C use, and the re-shot (somehow) for use on 11C/15C/16C use.

Oh, that I have done.

Alan

burkhard · 07-26-2019, 03:45 PM

(07-26-2019 02:20 PM)striegel Wrote:
(07-26-2019 01:27 AM)rprosperi Wrote: ...very common on Voyager machines (look closely at your V. keys with a loupe or simple magnifying glass), where you can also easily find keys that appear to have been shot once for 12C use, and the re-shot (somehow) for use on 11C/15C/16C use.
Oh, that I have done.

Alan

I have seen that on some of my Voyagers as well. It was my assumption that they double-shot in the same color (so as to make the original label nearly invisible) and then merely printed or painted the desired final label on.

From what Bob is saying about, they were actually triple-shot, though. Is that right? How? I'm trying to envision what the mold would look like. There's an injection molding guru engineer where I work. I should probably ask his opinion as well.

Has anyone ever cross-sectioned (cut open) a double-shot key (any double-shot key... not necessarily one of these "triple" ones)? How deep does the label go?

Giuseppe Donnini · 07-26-2019, 08:54 PM

(07-26-2019 03:45 PM)burkhard Wrote: Has anyone ever cross-sectioned (cut open) a double-shot key (any double-shot key... not necessarily one of these "triple" ones)? How deep does the label go?

Here is some first-hand information on this topic by the HP hardware engineers themselves.

Although the following excerpt concerns the flagship model HP-48SX, I would be surprised if the technique was different for the Pioneer models.

(Source: Mark A. Smith, Lester S. Moore, Preston D. Brown, James P. Dickie, David L. Smith, Thomas B. Lindberg, and M. Jack Muranami, "Hardware Design of the HP 48SX Scientific Expandable Calculator," in: Hewlett-Packard Journal, Vol. 42 no. 3, June 1991, pp. 25-34.)

[Image: S5e3EjY.jpg]

Ken S · 07-26-2019, 09:53 PM

Given the process described I wonder if what we are seeing is that the outside final mold was used for all calculators using the same keyboard shape and the immense pressures they described slightly imprinted the most common keyboard done with the mold into the mold after long use leaving a light outline in the shape of commands of say a 12c keys on a 15c keys.

P.S. Great article but the image isn't a 48SX given the equals sign at the bottom.

**rprosperi** · 07-27-2019, 12:01 AM

(07-26-2019 03:45 PM)burkhard Wrote: Has anyone ever cross-sectioned (cut open) a double-shot key (any double-shot key... not necessarily one of these "triple" ones)? How deep does the label go?

Not surprisingly, Richard Nelson did and documented it in an article in HP Solve Issue #26. The article includes good photos showing the white 'letters' go all the way through the full depth of the keys.

All issues of Solve are available in Jake Schwartz PPC DVD. I was going to include a link to this issue on HP's website, but either they've moved them to some new address, or removed them completely. Sigh...

Some deeper searching reveals the issue is here:
http://h20331.www2.hp.com/hpsub/download...y_2012.pdf

I found some issues, but the main index page seems to be gone.

Thomas Okken · 07-27-2019, 02:00 AM

(07-27-2019 12:01 AM)rprosperi Wrote: HP Solve

Good Lord, I have been living under a rock! I had never even heard of this publication before.

Google found me an index; I haven't checked all the links, but for what it's worth: https://www.thecalculatorstore.com/epage...cale=en_US

**rprosperi** · 07-27-2019, 01:29 PM

(07-27-2019 02:00 AM)Thomas Okken Wrote:
(07-27-2019 12:01 AM)rprosperi Wrote: HP Solve

Good Lord, I have been living under a rock! I had never even heard of this publication before.

Google found me an index; I haven't checked all the links, but for what it's worth: https://www.thecalculatorstore.com/epage...cale=en_US

Well, I know what you're doing this weekend...

I didn't know The Calculator Store was hosting these, nice find! Jose is missing issue #30, because whoever maintained the HP website goofed when adding issue #31 and never added a link for the prior issue. I 'contacted the webmaster' about a dozen times to point this out but eventually gave up since it seemed no one cared. Even Tim, Cyrille and GP seemed unable to get them to make this complex change.

Believe it or not, this seems to be all that is left of the HP Solve Index Page:

http://h20331.www2.hp.com/hpsub/us/en/hp...-2012.html

So sad...

I will email a copy of issue #30 to Jose so his list will be complete.

Thanks Thomas!

frodesto · 07-27-2019, 07:25 PM

Thanks for links to HP Journal and HP Solve. I found an index of old HP Journals at http://www.keesvandersanden.nl.

Fascinating to read about the mechanical and electronic design of these calculators. I can very much appreciate the skills and thought that went into the design of these marvelous machines.

Thomas Okken · 07-27-2019, 09:53 PM

(07-27-2019 01:29 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Well, I know what you're doing this weekend...

Working on portable state files, actually. Smile

(07-27-2019 01:29 PM)rprosperi Wrote: I didn't know The Calculator Store was hosting these, nice find! Jose is missing issue #30, because whoever maintained the HP website goofed when adding issue #31 and never added a link for the prior issue. I 'contacted the webmaster' about a dozen times to point this out but eventually gave up since it seemed no one cared. Even Tim, Cyrille and GP seemed unable to get them to make this complex change.

The Calculator Store isn't hosting the files; all the links on that page point back to HP. They do (still) work, so I was able to download all of them. Issue #30 is missing from that index, too, though.