Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

Klaus Overhage · (This post was last modified: 09-06-2021 07:26 AM by Klaus Overhage.)

The technical manual of the HP82166A HP-IL Converter describe a device with a 34-pin GPIO connector. The one I bought is a little bit smaller and with a 32-pin connector. I worked out the pin assignment of this device as good as I can from looking on the pcb.

Has anybody seen this variant of a HP82166A before and maybe can confirm the pin assignment?

Code:

           | <== upper plastic edge

        ----

GND  32 |  | 31 +5V

-CS  30 |  | 29 NC

DAVO 28 |  | 27 RDYI

RDYO 26 |  | 25 DACI

PWON 24 |  | 23 GND

DACO 22 |  | 21 HLLO

DB7  20 |  | 19 DAVI

DB5  18 |  | 17 DB6

DB3  16 |  | 15 DB4

DB1  14 |  | 13 DB2

DCLO 12 |  | 11 DB0

MSRQ 10 |  | 09 GET0

DA6  08 |  | 07 DA7

DA4  06 |  | 05 DA5

DA2  04 |  | 03 DA3

DA0  02 |  | 01 DA1

        ----

           | <== upper plastic edge

J-F Garnier · 09-14-2019, 08:43 AM

No I didn't know this variant. It seems that it's a pre-production variant still using discrete pulse transformers.

When I started to work on HP-IL in the 80's I got a HP82166 prototype - I don't have it anymore - that was using similar pulse transformers and also had a 32-pin connector. See attached image with the proto side by side with a production unit.

Note that the layout changed in the final HP82166 with the MCU and 1LB3 swapped.

J-F

Klaus Overhage · (This post was last modified: 11-01-2021 08:23 AM by Klaus Overhage.)

Thank you for your explanations. Then this device is probably not so strange and could work. It already has the same MCU as the production unit. But the ICs are still rotated as in your prototype. That explains probably the strongly deviating PIN assignment of my variant compared to the technical manual. The name is displayed by the HP-41CX with CCD module in Catalog 0 as HP82166A.

In the meantime, I was able to build the simple circuit from the book "Control the world with HP-IL", page 42. Instead of a 74C373, a 74HCT573 is used. The tests, whether so 8 LEDs can be switched were all positive. The DA0-DA7, DAVO, RDYI, DACI, + 5V and GND connections are all correct. The "Count" program on page 44 ran to 255 in 96 seconds. With the HP-71B, a flickering light looks very pretty.

Code:

10 RESTORE IO

20 A=DEVADDR("%64")

30 ENDLINE ""

40 X=1

50 FOR I=1 TO 8

60 OUTPUT :A; CHR$(X)

70 X=2*X

80 NEXT I

90 FOR I=1 TO 8

100 OUTPUT :A; CHR$(X)

110 X=X/2

120 NEXT I

130 GOTO 50

140 END

Paul Berger (Canada) · 09-16-2019, 02:23 PM

Dos anyone have one of the prototypes with the piggy back EPROM like the one in M. Garnier's photo? I would really like to get a dump of that EPROM.

Paul.

KimH · 04-08-2020, 10:06 AM

I have a handful of these 82166A modules and have decided to spend some time on them the last few (and next) days.

I can Write to the port, but when connecting 2 of these with the small connector board 82166-90013 i struggle to READ anything on the port.

I have looked at the Control the World.... and i see the R0-R3 being key, but have not found a way to READ from the 8-bit bus.

I send Characters to Module 1 and want to read them from Module 2 - ENTER :LOOP ; X$ - nothing happens it gets stuck.

I have been looking to find a copy of Christopher Klugs book - anyone know where to get the book?

Can anyone here help, please?

/Kim

J-F Garnier · 04-08-2020, 10:57 AM

(04-08-2020 10:06 AM)KimH Wrote: I send Characters to Module 1 and want to read them from Module 2 - ENTER :LOOP ; X$ - nothing happens it gets stuck.

First of all, you must use addresses in OUTPUT and ENTER statements, not just :LOOP.

Please post you complete test sequence, so we can evaluate it.

J-F

KimH · (This post was last modified: 04-08-2020 12:31 PM by KimH.)

Thanks J-F,

I actually use the address as you suggest.

I admit, that I am struggling with the logic of R0 to R3. I get most of it, but not all.

As G. Friedman suggest, the documentation and examples from HP were not exactly the best he had seen.

I saw a reference to Christoph's book HP41 - Input-Output Board and the TOC - looked like what I needed. Can't find it anywhere to buy. Maybe someone here would know how to get the book or how to get in touch with Mr. Klug (means clever in German Wink

)

Here are the 2 pieces I use for my experiment - retyped.

The listener stops at line 20 and move no further

Code:

1 !LISTENER

2 RESTOREIO

5 A=DEVADDR(“%64“)

6 ! FROM CONTROL THE WORLD P178 – LOOKS CORRECT 

7 SEND UNT UNL MTA LISTEN A DDL 0 DATA 226,16,24 UNT UNL

10 FOR I=1 TO 10

20 ENTER :A ;B$

25 DISP B$

30 NEXT I 

1 !TALKER (sends CHARS - seemingly)

2 RESTOREIO

3 ENDLINE””

5 A=DEVADDR(“%64“)

9 ! FROM CONTROL THE WORLD p33 – LOOKS CORRECT

10 SEND UNT UNL MTA LISTEN A DDL 0 DATA 74,16,208 UNT UNL

20 FOR I=1 TO 63

25 X$=CHR$(I+64)

30 OUTPUT :A ;X$

31 DISP I; X$

40 NEXT I

(04-08-2020 10:57 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:
(04-08-2020 10:06 AM)KimH Wrote: I send Characters to Module 1 and want to read them from Module 2 - ENTER :LOOP ; X$ - nothing happens it gets stuck.

First of all, you must use addresses in OUTPUT and ENTER statements, not just :LOOP.

Please post you complete test sequence, so we can evaluate it.

J-F

J-F Garnier · 04-08-2020, 02:33 PM

(04-08-2020 12:25 PM)KimH Wrote: Here are the 2 pieces I use for my experiment - retyped.

The listener stops at line 20 and move no further

Code:

1 !LISTENER 2 RESTOREIO 5 A=DEVADDR(“%64“) 6 ! FROM CONTROL THE WORLD P178 – LOOKS CORRECT 7 SEND UNT UNL MTA LISTEN A DDL 0 DATA 226,16,24 UNT UNL 10 FOR I=1 TO 10 20 ENTER :A ;B$ 25 DISP B$ 30 NEXT I 1 !TALKER (sends CHARS - seemingly) 2 RESTOREIO 3 ENDLINE”” 5 A=DEVADDR(“%64“) 9 ! FROM CONTROL THE WORLD p33 – LOOKS CORRECT 10 SEND UNT UNL MTA LISTEN A DDL 0 DATA 74,16,208 UNT UNL 20 FOR I=1 TO 63 25 X$=CHR$(I+64) 30 OUTPUT :A ;X$ 31 DISP I; X$ 40 NEXT I

Are you using 2 HP-71B, one on each side? Otherwise you must address the 2 converters with their own addresses.

That sounds quite complicate to just send bytes from one converter to the other.
You may start using the default control register setting and just do
OUTPUT 1;A$ on one side and ENTER 2;B$ on the other side.
Be sure to restore the default ENDLINE condition! otherwise it will not work.

To be more specific, I believe your test code above may hang at line 20 because the ENTER statement doesn't find a string terminator (since you disabled it with ENDLINE "").

J-F

KimH · 04-08-2020, 02:57 PM

Yes, I have 2 times 82166A mounted on the board in each their own loop with a 71B each - one TALK and the other LISTEN.

What I wanted was to see the sequence which was sent on one device re-appear on the other device, one by one. This would tell me that the loop was working and that I had understood some of the basics..

I believe I have done what you suggest but clearly I will try again.

Maybe I am dealing with a mundane challenge - one or both the modules are not working as expected.

I will drop a note here once I know more

Thanks for your suggestions and for your time!

/Kim

Quote:Are you using 2 HP-71B, one on each side? Otherwise you must address the 2 converters with their own addresses.

That sounds quite complicate to just send bytes from one converter to the other.
You may start using the default control register setting and just do
OUTPUT 1;A$ on one side and ENTER 2;B$ on the other side.
Be sure to restore the default ENDLINE condition! otherwise it will not work.

To be more specific, I believe your test code above may hang at line 20 because the ENTER statement doesn't find a string terminator (since you disabled it with ENDLINE "").

J-F

KimH · 04-08-2020, 03:12 PM

Oh Joy - both modules work Smile

RESTOREIO
ENDLINE

and then your suggestion actually moved the Characters "J-F" from one to the other 82166A Device! (thought that J-F was a nice touch Smile

)

Now that I know that BOTH module interfaces work, I can start having some fun

Thanks J-F!!

(04-08-2020 02:57 PM)KimH Wrote: Yes, I have 2 times 82166A mounted on the board in each their own loop with a 71B each - one TALK and the other LISTEN.

What I wanted was to see the sequence which was sent on one device re-appear on the other device, one by one. This would tell me that the loop was working and that I had understood some of the basics..

I believe I have done what you suggest but clearly I will try again.

Maybe I am dealing with a mundane challenge - one or both the modules are not working as expected.

I will drop a note here once I know more

Thanks for your suggestions and for your time!

/Kim

Quote:Are you using 2 HP-71B, one on each side? Otherwise you must address the 2 converters with their own addresses.

That sounds quite complicate to just send bytes from one converter to the other.
You may start using the default control register setting and just do
OUTPUT 1;A$ on one side and ENTER 2;B$ on the other side.
Be sure to restore the default ENDLINE condition! otherwise it will not work.

To be more specific, I believe your test code above may hang at line 20 because the ENTER statement doesn't find a string terminator (since you disabled it with ENDLINE "").

J-F

Dave Frederickson · 04-08-2020, 06:38 PM

(04-08-2020 12:25 PM)KimH Wrote: Maybe someone here would know how to get the book or how to get in touch with Mr. Klug (means clever in German )

You could send him a PM.

Paul Berger (Canada) · 04-08-2020, 07:29 PM

(04-08-2020 12:25 PM)KimH Wrote: I saw a reference to Christoph's book HP41 - Input-Output Board and the TOC - looked like what I needed. Can't find it anywhere to buy. Maybe someone here would know how to get the book or how to get in touch with Mr. Klug (means clever in German )

I got mine directly from Herr Klug, if you are unable to get one for some reason I could probably be convinced to part with my copy, it is practically unused.

Paul.

KimH · 04-09-2020, 05:33 AM

That’s my current challenge, I don’t find his email addr. I assume he is active in this group somewhere.

On XING (Germanic LinkedIn) I have found his name and his location Hildesheim, and sent him an invite. Maybe it is him and he reacts...

If anyone has a hint or his address - and feel ok sharing - I would make use of it.

/Kim

(04-08-2020 06:38 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:
(04-08-2020 12:25 PM)KimH Wrote: Maybe someone here would know how to get the book or how to get in touch with Mr. Klug (means clever in German )

You could send him a PM.

Dave Frederickson · (This post was last modified: 04-09-2020 02:17 PM by Dave Frederickson.)

(04-09-2020 05:33 AM)KimH Wrote: That’s my current challenge, I don’t find his email addr. I assume he is active in this group somewhere.

(04-08-2020 06:38 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: You could send him a PM.

A Private Message, not an email. https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/private.php?action=send

For Recipients: enter Christoph Klug.

I'm interested in Christoph's book as well. I acquired an 82166A complete in-box with two adapters and the Eval Board last week and I could use a good reference for the HP-IL protocol.

Dave

Edit: You can try sending Christoph an email here. https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/user-1798.html

KimH · 04-17-2020, 04:57 PM

So,

I made contact with Christoph Klug. In a roundabout way my efforts paid off and Christoph made contact to the publisher who has the book available as an e-book (PDF) - the paper-book is OOP.

If you write to Email = verlag@franzbecker.de and ask for the book:

ISBN 978-3-88120-853-6 titled "HP-41 Input / Output Board" and "IL2000 Interface System".

They will send you an "Invoice" for €18 which needs to be paid and the the link to the book arrives to your email the next day.

Not sure how they handle non-Germans, we have a Direct Deposit system which is reliable and fast. You may be well served asking here http://www.franzbecker.de/kontakt.html

I got the 700-plus page book this morning and have read through the most interesting parts of it and I must say, it is excellent! Better than I had hoped for and lots of inspiration.

There's even a section with comments from Wlodeck and a couple of other friends of our community.

It is a bit odd as the PDF is made in such a way that one part "HP-41 In/out" and the "IL2000" are "upside-down". Part one is read from the front cover - right page has what you read - and the second part is to be read from the back cover. i.e. every other page is upside/down.... - but it works.

I have the work cut out for me now Smile

- oh joy

(04-09-2020 02:10 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:
(04-09-2020 05:33 AM)KimH Wrote: That’s my current challenge, I don’t find his email addr. I assume he is active in this group somewhere.

A Private Message, not an email. https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/private.php?action=send

For Recipients: enter Christoph Klug.

I'm interested in Christoph's book as well. I acquired an 82166A complete in-box with two adapters and the Eval Board last week and I could use a good reference for the HP-IL protocol.

Dave

Edit: You can try sending Christoph an email here. https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/user-1798.html

Paul Berger (Canada) · 04-17-2020, 05:50 PM

Yes the book is printed in an interesting fashion, if anyone would rather have a paper copy I could probably be convinced to part with mine.

Paul Berger (Canada) · 04-20-2020, 12:46 PM

(04-17-2020 05:50 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote: Yes the book is printed in an interesting fashion, if anyone would rather have a paper copy I could probably be convinced to part with mine.

The book has been spoken for.

KimH · 03-14-2021, 06:44 PM

OK - It's raining... Again.

Hi Klaus or anyone ready to help

I know this may be a bit mundane - please be gentle. I have a couple of questions which you may be able to help me (and others) with

As the 82166A devices (I have a handful) are known to be a bit sensitive AND not replaceable, I got myself a 82165A GPIO "in a box" - it seems to be built a bit more robust/resilient and has its own 5V Power-Supply which you can tap into for experiments. I learned that in Control the World with HP-IL, which is my inspiration for getting started,.

The idea is that once I had done the same experiment as you have done using the same book and Circuit, I would move to the 166's and start doing some real I/O (Bi-directional, ADC/DAC, Optocouplers etc) - Read Christopher Klug, Interloop 211 et all

I got the components - Inverter & Latch - and a nice Canon 25 D-Sub plug with a "breakout-box" for the connector on the 82165A and got going, using the 5V power rail from the 165A.

It did not work as expected, it seemed like the 473 was in saturation mode with the nice LEDs (used blue ones). I simply couldn't get the LEDs to look as I had hoped for.

Several iterations and I realize a couple of things.
- The Latch was indeed stressed, it did flash the LEDs but VERY briefly
- The Inverter was working, but not triggering the LE, it appeared (but it actually did)
- The latch seemed to not be Latching...

So thinking Saturation I stopped using the 5V Power from 165A and put a separate PSU to feed the 74HC chips & LEDs. Which actually worked wonders... @3.8 Volts. Actually all the way from 2,5 volts it worked - LEDs behaved as expected.

Thinking I had lost my wits I tried to work my way back up to 5V. I was putting the 100, 220 (that one value would be right) and even 1k Ohm in series with the LEDs, not much of a change, the voltage divider/current limitation just would not play along as hoped for, current kept flowing in abundance, voltage controlled by the LEDs.

So here is the question/suspicion. Does it matter if I use the 74HC (CMOS) or the HCT (CMOS TTL-Level) - this may be the issue... Can anyone here give a hint?

BTW: The 74HC574 does not require the Inverter on LE (vs. 373 & 473), one chip saved Smile

(09-16-2019 07:23 AM)Klaus Overhage Wrote: Thank you for your explanations. Then this device is probably not so strange and could work. It already has the same MCU as the production unit. But the ICs are still rotated as in your prototype. That explains probably the strongly deviating PIN assignment of my variant compared to the technical manual. The name is displayed by the HP-41CX with CCD module in Catalog 0 as HP82166A.

In the meantime, I was able to build the simple circuit from the book "Control the world with HP-IL", page 42. Instead of a 74C373, a 74HCT573 is used. The tests, whether so 8 LEDs can be switched were all positive. The DA0-DA7, DAVO, RDYI, DACI, + 5V and GND connections are all correct. The "Count" program on page 44 ran to 255 in 96 seconds. With the HP-71B, a flickering light looks very pretty.

Code:

10 RESTORE IO 20 A=DEVADDR("%64") 30 ENDLINE "" 40 X=1 50 FOR I=1 TO 8 60 OUTPUT :A; CHR$(X) 70 X=2*X 80 NEXT I 90 FOR I=1 TO 8 100 OUTPUT :A; CHR$(X) 110 X=X/2 120 NEXT I 130 GOTO 50 140 END

Klaus Overhage · 03-15-2021, 09:42 AM

Hello Kim,
according to the data sheet, the HC version differs from the HCT-version only in terms of the input-voltages. The outputs are the same as voltages and currents.

I cannot find a data sheet for a 74HC473 on the internet. Is this a very old IC that was replaced by the 74HC573 some time ago? I think you better switch to a 74HCT573 with a 4069 or maybe 74HCT574.

I use a separate power supply for the LEDs and they are connected to the output of two 74LS00 against 5V via 330 ohms. A 7404 can do the same job.

I have build a cable from the HP 82165A to a Parallel Printer as described in the manual. And I have tried to read from and write to an old 8K SRAM with the help off some TTL-ICs that count the adress up. This SRAM circuit belongs to an old interface system for the Commodore 64, for which I have some plug-in cards and for example can write the results of an A/D converter into the 8k RAM.

KimH · 03-15-2021, 11:47 AM

Thanks Klaus, very helpful!

Fun with the old RAM-Memory Block - had not thought of that as an option Smile

I will for sure stay with the HC(T)574 from now on, no longer need the Inverter for LE.

Also I will split the two tasks - Latch and LED-Output - into two discrete blocks, as you have done.

(03-15-2021 09:42 AM)Klaus Overhage Wrote: Hello Kim,
according to the data sheet, the HC version differs from the HCT-version only in terms of the input-voltages. The outputs are the same as voltages and currents.

I cannot find a data sheet for a 74HC473 on the internet. Is this a very old IC that was replaced by the 74HC573 some time ago? I think you better switch to a 74HCT573 with a 4069 or maybe 74HCT574.

I use a separate power supply for the LEDs and they are connected to the output of two 74LS00 against 5V via 330 ohms. A 7404 can do the same job.

I have build a cable from the HP 82165A to a Parallel Printer as described in the manual. And I have tried to read from and write to an old 8K SRAM with the help off some TTL-ICs that count the adress up. This SRAM circuit belongs to an old interface system for the Commodore 64, for which I have some plug-in cards and for example can write the results of an A/D converter into the 8k RAM.