HP-IL device Seal s5801c

[John Keith]

The X and Y capacitors (plastic boxes), toroids and transformer are standard for both US and European mains-powered equipment. One way to determine the line voltage would be to trace the connections to the primary side of the transformer(the left side in the 2nd. pic in post #1). If there are 4 active pins on that side, it is a dual-primary transformer that can be hooked up to run on either 120 or 240V.

In any case I think that it would be safe to connect the transformer briefly to 120VAC and see if the logic circuitry is getting 5V.

[PeterP]

Ok, this all sounds quite “exciting” I have to say, with warnings of smoke, burns, aging caps, etc. Dumping a ROM and reverse engineering is far beyond my skill set for sure. And I’m not sure about the marital approval process in an apartment in lock down with two little kids for potentially having things go up in smoke, especially as I dont have a variac and generally only access to 220V, but can figure something out for 110v. Probably...
I might have ventured into more “interesting” territory for my $30 for this than I anticipated.

I will try some/all of the suggestions, and hopefully will live to tell the tale, without being thrown out of the apartment. Its pretty cold outside these days...

(It is absolutely amazing the amount of knowledge assembled on this site! You guys are all rockstars)

[Dave Frederickson]

(02-06-2021 06:55 PM)John Keith Wrote:  In any case I think that it would be safe to connect the transformer briefly to 120VAC and see if the logic circuitry is getting 5V.

I think this is a bad idea. Typically, industrial chassis that accept modules, like this one, provide DC power from a separate module plugged into the chassis backplane.
The transformer connections are probably the output to the AC motor.

Dave

[Erwin]

(02-07-2021 03:22 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  

(02-06-2021 06:55 PM)John Keith Wrote:  In any case I think that it would be safe to connect the transformer briefly to 120VAC and see if the logic circuitry is getting 5V.

I think this is a bad idea. Typically, industrial chassis that accept modules, like this one, provide DC power from a separate module plugged into the chassis backplane.
The transformer connections are probably the output to the AC motor.

Dave

Interesting thought. Yes this could be a possibility. To be on the secure side it would be necessary to look a the layout of the platine backside too, so we could describe the main components for the power part and the logic circuit. It‘s an interesting project.
Erwin

[Dave Frederickson]

I thought that if the connector could be identified as being used with a particular interface standard that that would help. Here're the specs on the connector:
https://b2b.harting.com/ebusiness/en_us/...9061486901

The connector is a DIN 41612 series connector as used by various bus standards including VME.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_41612
However, this particular connector is not used with any bus standard I'm familiar with although I'm pretty sure it's one used with Eurocards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(...uit_board)

Dave

[PeterP]

(02-07-2021 03:58 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  I thought that if the connector could be identified as being used with a particular interface standard that that would help. Here're the specs on the connector:
https://b2b.harting.com/ebusiness/en_us/...9061486901

The connector is a DIN 41612 series connector as used by various bus standards including VME.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_41612
However, this particular connector is not used with any bus standard I'm familiar with although I'm pretty sure it's one used with Eurocards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(...uit_board)

Dave

Dave, I don’t think this is the correct connector. Mine has three rows of equal length prongs, not just two. Does that change anything from your assessment? I will take a pic of the bottom of the PCB and post in case that is helpful.

Clearly worried now that this is DC powered, not AC...

[Dave Frederickson]

(02-07-2021 07:01 PM)PeterP Wrote:  

(02-07-2021 03:58 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  I thought that if the connector could be identified as being used with a particular interface standard that that would help. Here're the specs on the connector:
https://b2b.harting.com/ebusiness/en_us/...9061486901

The connector is a DIN 41612 series connector as used by various bus standards including VME.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_41612
However, this particular connector is not used with any bus standard I'm familiar with although I'm pretty sure it's one used with Eurocards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(...uit_board)

Dave

Dave, I don’t think this is the correct connector. Mine has three rows of equal length prongs, not just two. Does that change anything from your assessment? I will take a pic of the bottom of the PCB and post in case that is helpful.

Clearly worried now that this is DC powered, not AC...

Under Technical Characteristics it clearly states 3-rows and it is the right part number.

[PeterP]

(02-07-2021 07:33 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  

(02-07-2021 07:01 PM)PeterP Wrote:  Dave, I don’t think this is the correct connector. Mine has three rows of equal length prongs, not just two. Does that change anything from your assessment? I will take a pic of the bottom of the PCB and post in case that is helpful.

Clearly worried now that this is DC powered, not AC...

Under Technical Characteristics it clearly states 3-rows and it is the right part number.

Of course you are right. I was going by the picture which is hard to decipher, my apologies.

[PeterP]

(02-06-2021 02:05 AM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  [...]
If you can figure out the AC input I would probably start with 110V and see if you get +5V across the power pins of the HPIL chip as per Dave's post earlier. If you have a variac available you could even start with a lower AC input voltage and then raise it until you get something reasonable on the DC side.

Paul.

1) The grey transformer says :primary : 220V, secondary: 2 x 6V
2) I've attached a picture of the underside PCB in case that is helpful.

based on the discussion, I am now really not sure if this thing is DC in, AC out or the other way around....

[PeterP]

(02-07-2021 03:37 PM)Erwin Wrote:  

(02-07-2021 03:22 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  I think this is a bad idea. Typically, industrial chassis that accept modules, like this one, provide DC power from a separate module plugged into the chassis backplane.
The transformer connections are probably the output to the AC motor.

Dave

Interesting thought. Yes this could be a possibility. To be on the secure side it would be necessary to look a the layout of the platine backside too, so we could describe the main components for the power part and the logic circuit. It‘s an interesting project.
Erwin

Please see the backside attached. The transformer says : Primary 220V, Secondary 2 x 6V.
One the pins of the Primary side goes to the middle TO and from there to one torroidal, the other TO goes to the other Torroidal. The Second pin of the Primary side seems to go towrds the fuse.

Any of this helpful? Does it spit out 220V AC to drive a motor with a 6V input or is it the other way around? I am so confused...



   

[PeterP]

(02-06-2021 06:55 PM)John Keith Wrote:  The X and Y capacitors (plastic boxes), toroids and transformer are standard for both US and European mains-powered equipment. One way to determine the line voltage would be to trace the connections to the primary side of the transformer(the left side in the 2nd. pic in post #1). If there are 4 active pins on that side, it is a dual-primary transformer that can be hooked up to run on either 120 or 240V.

The transformer says : Primary 220V, Secondary: 2 x 6V.
There are 2 pins on the right side (in 2nd pic in post #1), 4 pins on the left side. From the two pins on the right side, one goes to the TO (and then to one torroidal), the other seems to go to the fuse.

based on the above, are you still thinking the primary side is the left side (the one which has 4 pins), not the right side?

[Dave Frederickson]

Try this first, measure the continuity between pin 1 on the 1LR4 chip, 5 VDC, and the connector pins. Use the beeper mode on your DVM.
If you find continuity then it's pretty conclusive that the board gets it's DC power from the backplane. If not, it could mean that there's something filtering or regulating the DC.

From the AC perspective:
1. As some of these, if not all, come from Germany, why would one assume that if the board were powered by AC the voltage would be 120?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/S5801C-SEAL-Regl...4208286635

2. The transformer and heatsink look awfully big to provide 5V to a couple of chips.

Dave

[Paul Berger (Canada)]

This is you picture of the back with some annotations, please note the annotations are just educated guesses from comparing the top and bottom of the boards. The Rifa caps have a Y on top of them which would lead me to believe that they are Y safety caps which are typically connected from the AC line to the ground. The two white caps next to them may be X caps and would be marked as such they are typically connected across the AC lines. The fuse holder would appear to be in line with what is likely one of the AC lines. You mentioned that the transformer is mark as having two 6 volt secondaries and it would appear that one end of both of them it tied together to effectively make it a center tapped transformer with the two leads that are tied together connected to the DC ground, and the ends tied to rectifier diodes. Q1 one appears to likely be a 3 terminal regulator something like a 7805 or a 340-5 it should be marked. it looks like Q2 and Q3 are probably triacs, again they should be marked. From what I can see it also looks like Q2 controls the AC to the transformer. If Q2 is a triac then the gate lead goes off to something that is obscured by the heatsink. One last guess looking at where the Rifa caps are connected I suspect that the large area at the bottom right is the ground (note it is also connected to a pad around one of the screws holding the heatsink.) then just left of that there are two groups of three pins the would seem to be the AC inputs, but again just a guess use a meter to verify.

As mentioned before Rifa caps like the ones on this board have been known to emit large amounts of smoke, the problem with them is the plastic shell on them cracks and moisture get in, so if they lokk at all like they are cracked I would remove them before applying power. As mentioned previously I suspect they are Y safety caps, it is ok to power up to test without them but is you where going to use this for the long term they should be replace with caps of a similar rating.

As Dave mentioned using the continuity check function of a meter to ring out the connections on the board is a good way to start. If that function is related to the resistance scales use the lowest range. Be aware that the transformer windings and the toroids will have very low resistance and may easily be mistaken for a connection. My usual approach to something like this is to ring out the connections and use that to sketch out a schematic of the board.

[John Keith]

Paul's annotations look correct to me. I think the confusion about primary vs. secondary arises from what side and orientation one is viewing from. Clearly the primary is the side next to the AC caps and toroids.

OTOH I agree that caution is warranted due to the age of capacitors and the chance of the magic smoke escaping.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

Maybe it would be helpful to contact the manufacturer directly? The company SEAL seems to exist, the datasheets of their current products show pictures of the 48-pin DIN 41612 connectors so even these are still in use.

This is the address:
SEAL AG
Landstrasse 176
Postfach
CH - 5430 Wettingen
Tel. +41 (0)56 430 20 60
info@seal.ch
http://seal.ch/index.html

Regards
Max

[HP-Collection]

Switzerland, wowo!
Another mysterious of our beautifull country

[PeterP]

I was not able to complete this before leaving to, wait for it, wait for it, Switzerland! So I will find time to call them from here and see what I can find out. Somehow the device and multimeter etc did not make the marital packing list...

Will report what I hear if any and result of analysis following the directions you all posted so generously upon my return.

[Erwin]

(02-13-2021 11:17 PM)PeterP Wrote:  I was not able to complete this before leaving to, wait for it, wait for it, Switzerland! So I will find time to call them from here and see what I can find out. Somehow the device and multimeter etc did not make the marital packing list...

Will report what I hear if any and result of analysis following the directions you all posted so generously upon my return.

Hi,

I was too curious and sent them an email on last Friday. They wrote back today that they will look if there are is any documentation available in the archives. The product is from 1989. So we have to wait for their response.

regards
Erwin

[Erwin]

Hurray,

I got ... a big present back :-) it's in German. Here is the translation (German to English) from his email .

Hello,
Yes, you may share this on the forum, of course, as usual with reference to the source.
We developed some HP-IL devices at the time and wrote the software ourselves with full functionality for HP-IL slaves as well as HP-IL Master.
The communication has been shown to be very robust. Thanks to the coding used, very simple pulse transformers could be used for galvanic isolation (yes, HP-IL is electrically separated), so much easier than galvanically isolated DC/DC converters and optocouplers.
The components (pulse transformer and HP-IL IC) could be easily ordered from HP at the time. It's actually amazing (if you usually look at the communication possibilities of the time), that the HP-IL system has not prevailed more in the industry.

Kind greetings
Vladimir Brozovic

There is the information about the connector (handwriting from him) and the manual (in German). The unit is a "universal controller for asynchronous motors" and can be used as an autonomous controller for two motors without a computer.

The little history he wrote is very interesting. I'll try to get more information about this company and the other tools the did with HP-IL. Although it would be necessary to draw the connector pins and connections in electronic from.
I changed the manual (PDF) in a electronic readable format so it would be easier to make translations to other languages.

best regards
Erwin

[PeterP]

Amazing! Wonderful!