41: Worth getting a card reader?

[Dave Britten]

Any opinions on whether it's worth getting a rebuilt/refurbished card reader for my 41CX, or are there better options available for about the same price point? I know you can save and load programs or storage registers, but there's no direct integration with Extended Memory. Also not sure if there's a simple method of backing up and restoring the user key assignments or alarm catalog, which would be extremely useful.

Can you use the printer at the same time for full support of 97 programs (which I have quite a few of)?

Also, how hard is it on the alkaline N batteries? Do you find that the number of blank cards required to make it useful is far greater than with a 65/67/97? For comparison, my 65 has about 30-40 cards written, as well as about 5 of the HP Application Pacs.

Just trying to decide if it's worth hunting for one on ebay, or if I should get something more exotic - i.e. expensive. And I have a DM41X already, but I'm also a sucker for the "real thing", and I can't plug my 82143A into the DM41X!

[Dave Frederickson]

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Any opinions on whether it's worth getting a rebuilt/refurbished card reader for my 41CX, or are there better options available for about the same price point? I know you can save and load programs or storage registers, but there's no direct integration with Extended Memory. Also not sure if there's a simple method of backing up and restoring the user key assignments or alarm catalog, which would be extremely useful.

Can you use the printer at the same time for full support of 97 programs (which I have quite a few of)?

Also, how hard is it on the alkaline N batteries? Do you find that the number of blank cards required to make it useful is far greater than with a 65/67/97? For comparison, my 65 has about 30-40 cards written, as well as about 5 of the HP Application Pacs.

Just trying to decide if it's worth hunting for one on ebay, or if I should get something more exotic - i.e. expensive. And I have a DM41X already, but I'm also a sucker for the "real thing", and I can't plug my 82143A into the DM41X!

Consider HP-IL with virtual storage and access to the files in the LIF disc archive.

[Thomas Okken]

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Any opinions on whether it's worth getting a rebuilt/refurbished card reader for my 41CX, or are there better options available for about the same price point? I know you can save and load programs or storage registers, but there's no direct integration with Extended Memory. Also not sure if there's a simple method of backing up and restoring the user key assignments or alarm catalog, which would be extremely useful.

The WSTS (Write Status) command saves key assignments, among other things. From the 82104A manual

Quote:Writing Status Cards Status cards can be written using the [WSTSj (write status) function. This function writes the following information to cards:

• Status of flags 0 through 43 (refer to the HP-41C Owner' s Hand-book and Programming Guide, section 14 for information about flags),
• Location of the statistics registers,
• Number of data storage registers currently allocated,
• Key reassignments of any standard HP-41 C functions or reassign-ments of any functions contained in any plug-in application module or other system extension. This does not include reassign-ments of programs you have written and stored in program memory (they are stored with the program), and
• Contents of registers X, Y, Z , T , LAST X, and ALPHA.

But for alarms, and anything in extended memory, you're on your own.

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Can you use the printer at the same time for full support of 97 programs (which I have quite a few of)?

Yes, the card reader has a notch in the bottom so an 82143A or an HP-IL interface can be plugged in at the same time.

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Also, how hard is it on the alkaline N batteries?

Not too terrible, but back in the '80s when I actually used this type of system (41C + 82104A + 82143A), I switched to using a rechargeable battery pack, because I was going through the alkalines too quickly for my taste. Your mileage may vary...

[Dave Britten]

(02-19-2021 08:28 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  Consider HP-IL with virtual storage and access to the files in the LIF disc archive.

Oh I'm most definitely considering that too, though I'd be in for at least 2-3x as much money as a card reader.

What are the best options for HP-IL virtual storage these days? PIL Box + PC, or is there something simple and self-contained?

[Sylvain Cote]

(02-19-2021 10:53 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  What are the best options for HP-IL virtual storage these days? PIL Box + PC, or is there something simple and self-contained?

pyILPER is written in python, so you could use a Raspberry PI Linux board with a PIL-Box board put together in a 3D printed box.
The source code for the simulator is available, you could modify it to make it headless and then run it as a daemon.

[rprosperi]

(02-19-2021 10:53 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  

(02-19-2021 08:28 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  Consider HP-IL with virtual storage and access to the files in the LIF disc archive.

Oh I'm most definitely considering that too, though I'd be in for at least 2-3x as much money as a card reader.

What are the best options for HP-IL virtual storage these days? PIL Box + PC, or is there something simple and self-contained?

All you need is the PIL-Box, the PC provides a virtual printer and virtual drives, and with pyILPer, you can also have a virtual monitor and plotter. With a 71B you can also use the PC keyboard and monitor; today that would be sold as 'remote operation'. On the PC, you 'mount' .lif disk images into the virtual drive, equivalent to inserting a floppy or tape into a drive. But you can have multiple virtual drives all for the same price.

I don't recall the price of the PIL-Box, but it is easily worth every cent (what is 1/100 of a Euro called?). Although it is undeniably cool and satisfying to use the Card Reader, save that money and put it towards a PIL-Box.

Also, as time and budgets allow, you can also add physical HP-IL peripherals into your Loop, so you can do the 'opposite' of what one normally imagines, by using a a virtual 41/71 with physical peripherals connected.

[mfleming]

(02-20-2021 12:34 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Although it is undeniably cool and satisfying to use the Card Reader, save that money and put it towards a PIL-Box.

There's no denying the cool factor associated with the whir of running a card through a handheld calculator, especially when done in front of someone under 40 Portability is another big factor in that you're not tied to a PC. That may be a deciding factor if you use your 41 on the go.

[Sylvain Cote]

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Any opinions on whether it's worth getting a rebuilt/refurbished card reader for my 41CX

Definitively, I use my card readers all the time.

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Also not sure if there's a simple method of backing up and restoring the user key assignments

As Thomas has written, WSTS & RSTS are the functions to do this.

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  I know you can save and load programs or storage registers, but there's no direct integration with Extended Memory.
...
Also not sure if there's a simple method of backing up and restoring ... alarm catalog

Nop!

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Can you use the printer at the same time for full support of 97 programs (which I have quite a few of)?

Yes and do not forget that the card reader has HP-67/97 compatibility functions allowing it to run most the programs written for 67/97 with some caveat identified in the users manual.

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Also, how hard is it on the alkaline N batteries?

Yes but you have no choice, rechargeable batteries do not have enough power to drive the card reader for any serious reading/writing session.
I always bring with me a spare battery holder with Alkaline batteries that I swap with my NiMh battery holder when I use my card reader.

Over time I have build an "on the road" kit for my 41 that fit inside a HP-97 soft case:

• 41CX-HN with fully charged N NiMH 500 mA/h batteries, Card reader, NoV-64d, double-XMEM & IR module.
• 41CL with fully charged N NiMH 500 mA/h batteries, serial port, Time module & 2 x free port
• 82240B IR printer with 4 x AAA Eneloop Pro batteries and paper roll in it.
• PIL-Box, short USB cable & 82160A HP-IL module
• 41CL update serial cable & USB-Serial adapter
• Spare alkaline battery sets: AAA & N
• Set of QRG
• Set of overlays
• Card holders (x2, 80 blank cards)
• One extra paper roll
• new small USB-NoV programmer (recent addition)
  

(02-19-2021 08:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Do you find that the number of blank cards required to make it useful is far greater than with a 65/67/97?

That is easy to calculate, each card can store 32 registers (16 registers per track).
Do CAT 1, takes the number of bytes shown with your program END, divide it by 7 then by 32 and you have the number of cards needed for your program.

[Dave Britten]

(02-20-2021 12:34 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  All you need is the PIL-Box, the PC provides a virtual printer and virtual drives, and with pyILPer, you can also have a virtual monitor and plotter. With a 71B you can also use the PC keyboard and monitor; today that would be sold as 'remote operation'. On the PC, you 'mount' .lif disk images into the virtual drive, equivalent to inserting a floppy or tape into a drive. But you can have multiple virtual drives all for the same price.

I don't recall the price of the PIL-Box, but it is easily worth every cent (what is 1/100 of a Euro called?). Although it is undeniably cool and satisfying to use the Card Reader, save that money and put it towards a PIL-Box.

Also, as time and budgets allow, you can also add physical HP-IL peripherals into your Loop, so you can do the 'opposite' of what one normally imagines, by using a a virtual 41/71 with physical peripherals connected.

Looks like an HP-IL adapter runs about the same price as a rebuilt and tested card reader. What's the going rate for a PIL Box? $100-150 or so? And a Pi Zero is practically free if I want something more portable. But given the 41 has much more memory than a 65 or 97, I wouldn't be transferring data as often as loading cards on those older models, so using my laptop as a storage device wouldn't be any worse than using a Graphlink cable with my TI-86 or something.

I could probably be convinced to buy that much stuff, though it looks like PIL Box sales are temporarily suspended right now.

Are the two IL cables built into the adapter sufficient if you're just connecting a single peripheral?

[Sylvain Cote]

(02-20-2021 01:11 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Are the two IL cables built into the adapter sufficient if you're just connecting a single peripheral?

The adapter comes without HP-IL connectors, you have to buy an HP-IL cable elsewhere that you will cut in the middle and insert the wires in the PIL-Box.

[Dave Britten]

(02-20-2021 01:17 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  

(02-20-2021 01:11 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Are the two IL cables built into the adapter sufficient if you're just connecting a single peripheral?

The adapter comes without HP-IL connectors, you have to buy an HP-IL cable elsewhere that you will cut in the middle and insert the wires in the PIL-Box.

Hang on, now I'm a bit confused. The HP-IL adapter for the 41 looks like it has two long cables hanging off of it. Are those not HP-IL connectors? Or is it just the PIL Box that needs to have a cable attached to it?

[Sylvain Cote]

(02-20-2021 01:23 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  

(02-20-2021 01:17 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  The adapter comes without HP-IL connectors, you have to buy an HP-IL cable elsewhere that you will cut in the middle and insert the wires in the PIL-Box.

Hang on, now I'm a bit confused. The HP-IL adapter for the 41 looks like it has two long cables hanging off of it. Are those not HP-IL connectors? Or is it just the PIL Box that needs to have a cable attached to it?

If you look at the PIL-Box PCB (below) from JFG HP-IL page you will see that there is two terminals on one side, this is where you connect your HP-IL wires.


Here is a picture I took for the HP-IL compendium that should clarify things.


edit: typo.

[rprosperi]

Sylvain's photo says almost everything... One can also install HP-IL sockets instead of sacrificing an HP-IL cable, though doing so is much more involved, depending on your DIY skills.

Ray Del Tondo wrote an excellent article with lots of details and photos here:

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-14287.html

[Dave Britten]

Looks very nice. I'll have to watch for the PIL-Box to go back on sale again and maybe pick one up. No rush on getting an HP-IL adapter until then, though, since I don't have any other HP-IL peripherals.

For the short term, I'll probably get a card reader. If Sylvain, despite having a warehouse of 41 accessories, still finds it extremely useful, that's about as convincing a testimonial as I can imagine.

[Sylvain Cote]

(02-20-2021 03:59 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  For the short term, I'll probably get a card reader.

Before going further, watch out for the card prices, that can change the total cost pretty quickly.
Current EB prices for unused cards are between $1.75 USD to $2.50 USD per card.

(02-20-2021 03:59 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  If Sylvain, despite having a warehouse of 41 accessories, ...

I do have one or two.

(02-20-2021 03:59 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  ... still finds it extremely useful, that's about as convincing a testimonial as I can imagine.

I find it useful for my use case, be sure that it is useful for you too before taking that road.

edit: typo

[Dave Britten]

(02-20-2021 04:29 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  Before going further, watch out for the card prices, that can can change the total cost pretty quickly.
Current EB prices for unused cards are between $1.75 USD to $2.50 USD per card.

I've got around 200 blanks or so, which should be enough for a while. Every so often I buy another 40 or 80 for my 65 and 97 when I see a good deal that's around $1 per card.

(02-20-2021 04:29 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  I find it useful for my use case, be sure that it is useful for you too before taking that road.

I get a ton of use out of the card readers in my 65 and 97 (not having continuous memory is of course a big factor). I suspect I would need to actually use it much less frequently on my 41, but being able to quickly offload, reload, and back up programs or data is very appealing. Plus I've got the 67/97 Math Pac and Surveying Pac, as well as programs I've written, that could quickly be imported and spruced up a little.

[Hans Brueggemann]

the card reader is for sure worth it. be it as a quick backup/restore device while doing (small) programs, or as "reset" device to bring your precious HP-41CL back to some sane configuration.
however, as soon as you get to larger programs (larger than what fits into a '67 or '97), the card reader isn't no longer cutting it for various reasons: storing and handling _many_ cards becomes kinda cumbersome, and -let's admit it- the card reader is a power hog. with the beefy batteries in a '97 or '67, this is less apparent, but for a '41 running on an original "hurricane", that's a deal breaker for me.

hence, with a card reader comes also the desire for a better battery pack, be it just NiMH retrofit or one of the more sophisticated LiIon packs. add $$ here.

J-F's solution is for sure the most versatile one, so that gives you most bang for the bucks.

and then there's tobie's solution, which didn't get much love in this thread so far, but is for sure worth a try. have a look here, it's a 9114 on steroids and, on top of it, doesn't require a PC or laptop.

[Dave Britten]

(02-20-2021 05:52 PM)Hans Brueggemann Wrote:  the card reader is for sure worth it. be it as a quick backup/restore device while doing (small) programs, or as "reset" device to bring your precious HP-41CL back to some sane configuration.
however, as soon as you get to larger programs (larger than what fits into a '67 or '97), the card reader isn't no longer cutting it for various reasons: storing and handling _many_ cards becomes kinda cumbersome, and -let's admit it- the card reader is a power hog. with the beefy batteries in a '97 or '67, this is less apparent, but for a '41 running on an original "hurricane", that's a deal breaker for me.

hence, with a card reader comes also the desire for a better battery pack, be it just NiMH retrofit or one of the more sophisticated LiIon packs. add $$ here.

J-F's solution is for sure the most versatile one, so that gives you most bang for the bucks.

and then there's tobie's solution, which didn't get much love in this thread so far, but is for sure worth a try. have a look here, it's a 9114 on steroids and, on top of it, doesn't require a PC or laptop.

While we're on the subject, is there any good source for NiMH N batteries? I'm just about to make an order for another dozen alkalines...

The Arduino IL device looks really cool.

[Sylvain Cote]

(02-20-2021 05:52 PM)Hans Brueggemann Wrote:  and then there's tobie's solution, which didn't get much love in this thread so far, but is for sure worth a try. have a look here, it's a 9114 on steroids and, on top of it, doesn't require a PC or laptop.

I had completely forgotten this one, thank you Hans for reminding me, I will order the parts and build one.

[Sylvain Cote]

(02-20-2021 05:58 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  While we're on the subject, is there any good source for NiMH N batteries? I'm just about to make an order for another dozen alkalines...

I do not know why, but since COVID-19 started, NiMH N batteries has become very hard to find.
It seems that Small Battery Company in UK still has some in inventory.
Currently unavailable: Odec @ Amazon , EBL @ Amazon & Interstate Batteries