DM42 vs hp49gp (performance-wise)

[gour]

Hello,

I am humbly asking for an advice...my journey with HP calculators started way back in 1984 when I bought 15C which served my during my electrical/computer engineering studies. Then I proceed with 28S which I lated donated to some student anticipating I would not have a need for such calculator.

Later, I wanted to write some programs for my studies of Vedic astrology and went with HP49gp which I still have and used Urania application.

These days I'm using specialized desktop application and have light Android app, but still, I'd like to have some calculator companion for my work enabling me not to be too dependent on the Internet, availability to work in less-distracted places where there are is no "no computer sound" etc. :-)

There are few options which I see:

1. continue with HP49gp
   iow. use Urania or some other lighter package - I need only ephemeris and write some routines on top of that.
2. HP Prime which might be easier for programming and use similar scenario as under 1)
3. some model from SwissMicro like DM42/DM41X
   

How much is HP49gp performant in comparison with DM4x models mentioned above?

HP Prime does seem like bloated overkill for my needs and I don't like touch screens etc.

When it comes to SwissMicro models I learnt that DM41X's advantage might be the ability to use some of many available models which handle ephemeris calculation, but the trade-off is slower speed and less accuracy.

DM42 - newer version with improved keyboard - is faster, more precise, but I wonder about the ability to execute any HP41C program or easiness to port them to DM42?

When it comes to programming, I was writing RPN programs for my HP15C which I still have and use - today I was impressed watching two youtube videos comparing its performance with DM41X and with the DM42. Any comment how it is that 15C is so competitive?) and was using UserRPL (without diving into SysRPL) on HP49gp.

I agree that RPN as used on DM41x/DM42 is simpler, but wonder whether they provide good-enough environment for my needs where I'd also like, if possible, to be able to create graphics of someone's chart with astro symbols, like .

Otherwise, both DM models look very nice, quaility build and SM is giving a life to HP calcs:

Any hint in regard?

Sincerely,
Gour

[rprosperi]

What YT video???

A 15C cannot possibly compete with a DM41X or DM42, assuming the same algorithm and roughly the same program, unless it's a 15C Limited Edition model from 2011, which are rare and expensive (sold as collector's items), and even then they are somewhat buggy with poorer keyboards than your original 15C (even with all the miles it has).

Similar programs on a DM41X are definitely slower than on a DM42, but still a factor of 10's faster than an original 41C.

Comparing a DM42 program with a 49g+ is much harder as the programs are naturally much different (RPN vs RPL) so you would have to create some kind of benchmark program in both languages, which use the kinds of operations needed in your target program (e.g. I'd assume with lots of floating point path, Trig, Logs, Roots, etc.).

[roberto_abraham]

(12-14-2021 12:05 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  What YT video???

He did provide a link in his post but it wasn't super obvious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGpaz4jNdBc

You're right that it's a Limited Edition, and the video confirms your point that it is quite a lot slower than the DM42 for the example shown.

Bob

[roberto_abraham]

Hi Gour -

I've got a DM42 and I have used Urania a fair bit on a HP50g. Urania is really something pretty special... essentially the whole of Meeus' Astronomical Algorithms book in a nicely packaged library.

I think individual programs based on algorithms in Meeus' book (which is pretty much the gold standard for moderate accuracy positional astronomy on small machines) are pretty easy to find for the HP41, so there are lots of great HP41 astronomy programs for things like planet positions. Individual HP41 programs are generally super easy to port to the DM42. And the DM42 definitely has the horsepower needed to calculate things like planet positions without annoying long waits.

One caveat though is that the astronomy programs I've seen for the HP41 are mostly self-contained things that calculate interesting quantities but they take input and provide output in ways that don't make it easy to chain programs together. (I'm obviously generalizing here). Anyway, the nice thing about Urania is the way everything is so logically laid out and well documented and the routines are explicitly designed to call each other and be interoperable. As a result, I haven't found anything that can replace Urania on my DM42, though I think if you're keen enough to try to produce such a thing the calculator is powerful enough to allow you to do that.

Bob

P.S. I'm an astrophysicist and this is the first time in my life I've ever tried to help somebody cast a horoscope! :-)

[rprosperi]

(12-14-2021 02:06 AM)roberto_abraham Wrote:  

(12-14-2021 12:05 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  What YT video???

He did provide a link in his post but it wasn't super obvious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGpaz4jNdBc

You're right that it's a Limited Edition, and the video confirms your point that it is quite a lot slower than the DM42 for the example shown.

Bob

Thanks for pointing that out, Bob, the links were indeed well-integrated into the text. Also, I was surprised to see these videos, I thought I had seen about all of this type; always good to see more.

Indeed the primary goal of the 41X was to easily and flexibly provide access to the incredibly huge library of ROM and FOCAL 41 programs, plus of course offer a bit of homage to the 41, which seems appropriate. Absolute fidelity across this wide spectrum of programs drove the need to use the real ROMs in emulation, thus the speed penalty.

It's oversimplifying for sure, but I generally advise folks:

--Choose the DM42 if you want to write your own RPN programs, it's faster and enhanced FOCAL commands make it the best choice

--Choose the DM41X to access the enormous libraries of already written (and documented!) ROMs, User Library Solutions Books, PPC programs, etc.

[gour]

(12-14-2021 12:05 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  A 15C cannot possibly compete with a DM41X or DM42, assuming the same algorithm and roughly the same program, unless it's a 15C Limited Edition model from 2011, which are rare and expensive (sold as collector's items), and even then they are somewhat buggy with poorer keyboards than your original 15C (even with all the miles it has).

Ahh, that explains it...I must admit I was quite confused with those videos.

Quote:Similar programs on a DM41X are definitely slower than on a DM42, but still a factor of 10's faster than an original 41C.

Thanks, that is very helpful!

[gour]

Hello Bob,

(12-14-2021 02:32 AM)roberto_abraham Wrote:  I've got a DM42 and I have used Urania a fair bit on a HP50g.

Has DM42 become your daily driver and/or have you replaced HP50g with DM42?

Quote:I think individual programs based on algorithms in Meeus' book (which is pretty much the gold standard for moderate accuracy positional astronomy on small machines) are pretty easy to find for the HP41, so there are lots of great HP41 astronomy programs for things like planet positions.

I was not aware that Meeus' book is still relevant today.

Quote:And the DM42 definitely has the horsepower needed to calculate things like planet positions without annoying long waits.

Do you consider that DM42 also has enough capacity for the project I intend to do?

Quote:One caveat though is that the astronomy programs I've seen for the HP41 are mostly self-contained things that calculate interesting quantities but they take input and provide output in ways that don't make it easy to chain programs together.

I see...Can I also bet that most of the HP41 programs are not available in the source form?

Quote:As a result, I haven't found anything that can replace Urania on my DM42, though I think if you're keen enough to try to produce such a thing the calculator is powerful enough to allow you to do that.

Hmm...any rough estimation what kind of performance one might expect on DM42 in comparison with similar program written for HP49g/50?

Quote:P.S. I'm an astrophysicist and this is the first time in my life I've ever tried to help somebody cast a horoscope! :-)

Ohh, I sincerely admit it!

In the past (Vedic time), the two sciences were tied very close to each other and actually it was not possible (aka allowed) to someone to study Vedic astrology (Jyotish) before mastering Sanskrit, mathematic and astronomy - take a look at this short article.

Unfortunately, today, every fool can buy/use some application and start with "predictions".

As law of karma is an "extension" of Newton's third law (FA = −FB) explaining there is reaction for each of our deeds.

Many people are despising (Vedic) astrology considering it pseudo-science e.g. mathematics is a language of the physics describing its phenomena, similarly it's not that planets/stars are creating our destiny, but they are just the language which does describe it like the clock's hands "describe" time and not influencing it.

[gour]

(12-14-2021 03:28 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Thanks for pointing that out, Bob, the links were indeed well-integrated into the text. Also, I was surprised to see these videos, I thought I had seen about all of this type; always good to see more.

Quote:It's oversimplifying for sure, but I generally advise folks:

--Choose the DM42 if you want to write your own RPN programs, it's faster and enhanced FOCAL commands make it the best choice

How much faster is DM42?

Quote:--Choose the DM41X to access the enormous libraries of already written (and documented!) ROMs, User Library Solutions Books, PPC programs, etc.

Thank you!

Nobody even mentioned Prime, so I'll eliminate it from the options' list...and still have to think about possibility to resume my work with HP49g for which there is Urania library if in case if the DM42's speed is not making it a clear winner...

[Guenter Schink]

(12-14-2021 09:42 AM)gour Wrote:  Nobody even mentioned Prime, so I'll eliminate it from the options' list...and still have to think about possibility to resume my work with HP49g for which there is Urania library if in case if the DM42's speed is not making it a clear winner...

You didn't include the Prime in your questions. The PRIME is a complete different thing. It doesn't RPL/RPN in programming. BUT concerning performance, it runs circles around the other calculators. You'd have the choice of three programming languages.

1. PPL: The normal programming language of the PRIME

2. CAS: Computer Algebra System

3. Python: A recently added language, much faster than everything else on today's calculator market. It has some glitches still, but those shouldn't play a role in what you're planning.

Günter

[gour]

(12-14-2021 10:39 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  You didn't include the Prime in your questions.

Well, I listed it as the 2nd option...

Quote:The PRIME is a complete different thing. It doesn't RPL/RPN in programming. BUT concerning performance, it runs circles around the other calculators.

I assume you mean G2 model, right?

Quote: You'd have the choice of three programming languages.

1. PPL: The normal programming language of the PRIME

That one looks interesting...

Quote:2. CAS: Computer Algebra System

Probably, not very relevant for my use case.

Quote:3. Python: A recently added language, much faster than everything else on today's calculator market. It has some glitches still, but those shouldn't play a role in what you're planning.

What kind of Python is it? IIRC, TI calcs do support some mini python, so wonder about Prime's support?

[gour]

(12-14-2021 12:05 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Similar programs on a DM41X are definitely slower than on a DM42, but still a factor of 10's faster than an original 41C.

Just stumbled on interesting presentation from HPCC 2020 giving me some insight into the speed based on the benchmark...

[John Keith]

In terms of graphics, the Prime is the winner here, with a color display that is higher resolution than the 49gp. The DM42 has a monochrome display but also higher resolution. The Prime G2 is the fastest, but even the G1 is substantially faster than the 49gp or the DM42.

The Python interpreter on the Prime is a nice MicroPython implementation with connections to the CAS for numerical calculation. It is also faster than PPL in most cases. Both languages on the prime are very different from RPL or RPN so it will require some effort to port programs you may have to the Prime.

Another option if you have an Android phone is EMU48, a free open-source emulator of the HP48/49/50 series. It is available from the Google Play store. It is many times faster than the 49gp etc. I believe there are similar apps for the iPhone but I am not familiar with them.

[Guenter Schink]

(12-14-2021 11:27 PM)gour Wrote:  

(12-14-2021 10:39 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  You didn't include the Prime in your questions.

Well, I listed it as the 2nd option...

sorry, my bad

Quote:

Quote:The PRIME is a complete different thing. It doesn't RPL/RPN in programming. BUT concerning performance, it runs circles around the other calculators.

I assume you mean G2 model, right?

The G1 would do too. But why not the actual model? The G2 is much better than the G1!

Quote:

Quote: You'd have the choice of three programming languages.

1. PPL: The normal programming language of the PRIME

That one looks interesting...

Quote:2. CAS: Computer Algebra System

Probably, not very relevant for my use case.

Quote:3. Python: A recently added language, much faster than everything else on today's calculator market. It has some glitches still, but those shouldn't play a role in what you're planning.

What kind of Python is it? IIRC, TI calcs do support some mini python, so wonder about Prime's support?

It's an implementation of MicroPython. In addition to what John has stated it also has a nice drawing engine (although sometimes a bit flawed).

Now to the commercials:
have a look at my Python program:Mandelbrot explorer
much more sophisticated is Olivier de Smets(Oulan):HP 41CX Emulator in Python
These programs may give you an impression of what's possible

Both PPL and Python can be written very comfortably on the PC using e.g. Notepad++ with syntax highlighting and (Python) indentation support checks.

I believe Python is best suited for your task.

Günter

[gour]

Quote:The G1 would do too. But why not the actual model? The G2 is much better than the G1!

I see that availability of G2 in EU is not great...is there any truth about upcoming G3?

Quote:It's an implementation of MicroPython. In addition to what John has stated, it also has a nice drawing engine (although sometimes a bit flawed).
...
Both PPL and Python can be written very comfortably on the PC using e.g. Notepad++ with syntax highlighting and (Python) indentation support checks.

I believe Python is best suited for your task.

I agree that using Python is very attractive—ability to write the code in my Emacs. :-) - and productive in comparison with RPN/RPL for the project I've in my mind...

Now, just wonder (and I will explore it) how much of the 'standard' libraries written for CPython can be used, since that would greatly reduce how much I should write and could definitely greatly enhance possibilities of the project.

Otoh, using DM42 would make it more like a simple companion for a manual, work, iow. just writing some small routines...

For now, the major obstacle is that I'm fully on Linux and Prime's Connectivity Kit does not work on it.

Quote:Now to the commercials:
have a look at my Python program:Mandelbrot explorer
much more sophisticated is Olivier de Smets(Oulan):HP 41CX Emulator in Python
These programs may give you an impression of what's possible

Thanks a lot! I'll take a look.

[Guenter Schink]

The availability of HP calcs isn't great everywhere. Dynatech have it.

I think no one knows if there ever will be a G3.

Having no connectivity under Linux is a real show stopper. Wihout connectivity it doesn't make sense at all. Therefor you're right, as you stated in the Prime section, to skip it.

The DM42 has the advantage that emulators of Free42 are available on various platforms: Windows, Linux, Android, IOS as on the DM42.

Günter

[gour]

(12-16-2021 02:04 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  The availability of HP calcs isn't great everywhere. Dynatech have it.

Thanks!

Quote:Having no connectivity under Linux is a real show stopper. Wihout connectivity it doesn't make sense at all. Therefor you're right, as you stated in the Prime section, to skip it.

I can run a beta version of HP Connectivity kit on my Linux (Fedora) machine, but wonder whether the HP team is still working on it...

Quote:The DM42 has the advantage that emulators of Free42 are available on various platforms: Windows, Linux, Android, IOS as on the DM42.

Yes, that's a big 'pro'. :-)

[nickapos]

(12-16-2021 02:12 PM)gour Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 02:04 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  The availability of HP calcs isn't great everywhere. Dynatech have it.

Thanks!

Quote:Having no connectivity under Linux is a real show stopper. Wihout connectivity it doesn't make sense at all. Therefor you're right, as you stated in the Prime section, to skip it.

I can run a beta version of HP Connectivity kit on m Linux (Fedora) machine, but wonder whether the HP team is still working on it...

Quote:The DM42 has the advantage that emulators of Free42 are available on various platforms: Windows, Linux, Android, IOS as on the DM42.

Yes, that's a big 'pro'. :-)

Your best bet with HP Connectivity Kit is a windows virtual machine.
It has not worked 100% for me, but if you install the virtualbox extension for USB it will work.

Having said that
Free/Plus42 are great and i definitely use them. Obviously a DM42 will be great as well if you want to buy one.

Other than that the other option is to have a windows system around for these devices that do not support Linux. I have an old windows installation that i use when nothing else works.

[gour]

(12-16-2021 04:06 PM)nickapos Wrote:  Your best bet with HP Connectivity Kit is a windows virtual machine.
It has not worked 100% for me, but if you install the virtualbox extension for USB it will work.

The last Windows license I had was for XP and I was running it under virtual machine, but I have it no longer.

Quote:Having said that
Free/Plus42 are great and i definitely use them. Obviously a DM42 will be great as well if you want to buy one.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards it...

Quote:Other than that the other option is to have a windows system around for these devices that do not support Linux. I have an old windows installation that i use when nothing else works.

I'm, trying to simplify my life and this does not fit well.

[gour]

My choice is now actually between DM42 & HP Prime...

I wonder how much memory (out of 32 MBit external flash according to the spec) is available for user's programs...Urania's web site mentions that it is "...total of about 500kB programs and data" - of course , I do not need all of its features, but mostly just Ephemeris, but I need to build many things on that, so maybe DM42, although being very nice calc, is a bit short on memory?

Otoh, not being able to access HP Prime as USB media storage under Linux sucks...

(12-15-2021 05:47 PM)John Keith Wrote:  The Python interpreter on the Prime is a nice MicroPython implementation with connections to the CAS for numerical calculation. It is also faster than PPL in most cases.

Any rough estimation, how much faster is Python over PPL?

Is it actually worth to dive into PPL or (Micro)Python is future for HP Prime?

Quote:Both languages on the prime are very different from RPL or RPN so it will require some effort to port programs you may have to the Prime.

I'm aware of that, but in any case I probably have to build from the scratch incrementally...