RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation

11082022, 12:48 AM
Post: #1




RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
Hi all.
Had a thought: Since order of operations is the foundation of mathematics, I’d think that since it’s so vital, teachers would strongly recommend RPN calculators because it forces the students to understand how order of operations works. For example, since an RPN calculator does not carry out the hierarchy and manual problem statement and entry are key, it challenges students to enter the calculation in the manner in which order of operations dictates. Plus, since calculations are immediately returned, the student can see where the mistakes were made. And with Last X, a student can recover from mistakes and either start over or pick up where they left off and try to enter the calculation in which order of operations dictates. In addition, RPN also structures learning about using parentheses and how they affect calculation evaluation. 

11082022, 01:41 AM
(This post was last modified: 12172023 07:27 AM by Garth Wilson.)
Post: #2




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
I express one of my frustrations in this paragraph of the RPN operations page of my treatise on 6502 stacks ("stacks" plural, not just the page1 hardware stack):
http://WilsonMinesCo.com (Lots of HP41 links at the bottom of the links page, at http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html#hp41 ) 

11092022, 06:29 PM
Post: #3




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
Hello!
(11082022 12:48 AM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: Since order of operations is the foundation of mathematics, I’d think that since it’s so vital, teachers would strongly recommend RPN calculators because it forces the students to understand how order of operations works. I don't agree. Teachers shoud not recommend any type of calculator and even less build their teaching around calculators. Instead, they should teach mathematics and calculus as if there was no calculator at all. Once the students have understood the basics and underlying rules they can use whatever calculator they want. It will make no difference. By now, a whole generation was taught mathematics without RPN calculators. The aircraft and bridges and sykscrapers they design (if engineering is their chosen profession) seem to work well, so the lack of RPN tuition at school does not seem to have any adverse effect! Regards Max 

11092022, 08:14 PM
Post: #4




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
(11092022 06:29 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote: Hello! At 56, I can say I fall for into your generation. Yes, in my math classes, you had to use your noggin. And I do agree with your point. I thought there would be a way this new generation could use calculators as a secondary or tertiary tool since they need to put their brain in gear first. 

11092022, 08:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 11092022 08:48 PM by floppy.)
Post: #5




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
Nice finding since I was reading the posts: https://cleverpedia.de/listederzugelas...rttemberg/
It means, several calculators are released for degree in southgermany. We see an HP35S. RPN. So far I evaluate the teachers at such (not bad) schools: not paid enough, mostly maltraited from ruthless parents, could have more social recognition, not trained in informatic (low level of IT level) therefore unable to disclose the advantages of the several calculators. We should not overload them. Since I have made a linux intallation course free of charge (2 day in the last months of the prelastclass) for youth few years ago (they were approx 17), I will now suggest an introduction course for calculators for the newcomers (1h should be enough). So, boys and girls, lets start a course training documentation covering the calculator types and we have to go to the schools. Now this is an additional project (1 of xxxx on my ToDo list). The people will not accept our proposal? whatever, distributing the doc to the parents via the school management could be enough. Remember: ONE soul going RPN is ONE soul more in paradise.. haha. UPDATE: CRAZY (good).. the HP prime is allowed in RheinlandPfalz HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HPIL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64bPC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X 

11092022, 08:42 PM
Post: #6




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
Hello!
(11092022 08:14 PM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: At 56, I can say I fall for into your generation. I'll be 60 in a few days time (hard to believe, I still feel the same as with 26 apart from the reading glasses ;) ) so probably yes. The first ones among our classmates who chose to become mathematics and physics teachers are about to retire soon. As we had no RPN calculators during our own time at school, simply because here in Europe they cost three times as much as every other calculator and no parent would buy their children one, they probaly taught mathematics with no reference to RPN throughout their career. Matt Agajanian Wrote:I thought there would be a way this new generation could use calculators as a secondary or tertiary tool since they need to put their brain in gear first. The new generation does not use calculators at all. My son, who finished school five years ago, was part of an experimental group that got issued CAS calculators, a Ti Nspire in his case, very early  around the age of 11 or 12. The idea was to rid them of the burden of calculating themselves right away and free their minds to more useful tasks. The day he finished school was probably the last time he used a physical calculator. If he ever has to calculate anything again he will either use his smartphone or delegate the task to his tax adviser... And his Ti Nspire is now part of my collection of calculators :) Regards Max 

11102022, 09:15 AM
Post: #7




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
(11082022 12:48 AM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: Hi all.Forces? I understand what you mean but we should say "mission" the people, convince or explain. We should overtake the role of explaining a RPN calculator. And we should overtake that task from the teacher (my opinion). a) identify the target age (my first RPN was at approx 15; before only +/= if I remember). If the calculator is expensive, then important moneystakeholders (parents, grandparents) must be convinced or some arguments for them must be listed. = Target from 14 on and explanation for the investors in the family? b) start a documentation explaining the 2 different systems "()=" and "RDN ENTER". Maximum 10 pages c) give advice where it could be interesting to start RPN d) at the end the manufacturer manual should be readen carefully e) during start of the year in the school, go for 30min to the parent meeting and ask for 30min in a school course (go through the 10 pages, show the calculators, give the presentation to the children). I have done it for a linux install on older PC. Took weeks of preparation/documentation. HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HPIL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64bPC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X 

11102022, 09:47 AM
Post: #8




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
(11102022 09:15 AM)floppy Wrote: a) identify the target age (my first RPN was at approx 15; before only +/= if I remember). I am sorry that you missed the multiplication key when younger. ;) Greetings, Massimo +×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong 

11102022, 03:12 PM
Post: #9




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation  
11122022, 12:01 AM
Post: #10




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
(11082022 12:48 AM)Matt Agajanian Wrote: Hi all. You have a point, but I have to agree with some of the other posters here who recommend zero calculators until the mathematics are understood. Similar logic to softwarebased spellcheckers and grammar checkers: they are for people who can spell, not for those who cannot. Otherwise you'd have a bunch of led guitarists who boar people with they're musicality. At the tender age of 13, I obtained my first fourfunctioned calculator (a Sinclair Cambridge  yes, that was 1973). Prior to that we were permitted to use slide rules, which had the advantage of forcing us to understand significant figures (only three could realistically be used with slide rules) and for us to use common sense. One math teacher, to his credit, admitted once having used a slide rule, in his youth, to multiply by ten! Beyond that, we were instructed in the use of log tables, trig tables, and other tools such as "Oh, Sah, Coat" (a mnemonic to help us remember the relationships between sines, cosines, tangents, and the three sides of a right triangle). But we were not allowed to use calculators in exams, not even until later years in college and graduate school (the latter of which required zero calculus since I'd gone into a field not needing it). Statistics and linear regression, however, became useful tools, and operations of calculators providing those functions and more were well worth understanding. But I do support your idea of recommending RPN  in my sixties, this old dog's tricks are hard to displace with new ones, and having gotten used to RPN 30 years ago it might be harder to learn how to deal with other systems. 

11122022, 03:45 PM
Post: #11




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
My first calculator was a Texas Instruments SR10 in college, but I had an uncle in California who has an HP45. I was jealous. My second one was an HP 25. I was out of college by then.
Also, my high school math teacher taught us SOHCAHTOA for the trig relationships, but we are Americans who put things in MMDDYY order. 

11122022, 08:32 PM
Post: #12




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
(11122022 03:45 PM)DGM Wrote: My first calculator was a Texas Instruments SR10 in college, but I had an uncle in California who has an HP45. I was jealous. My second one was an HP 25. I was out of college by then. Me as well. SOHCAHTOA is still ingrained in my brain. 

11122022, 10:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 11132022 12:57 PM by floppy.)
Post: #13




RE: RPN calcs should be a teacher’s recommendation
(11102022 09:47 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:Multiplication thoughts started and did not end.(11102022 09:15 AM)floppy Wrote: a) identify the target age (my first RPN was at approx 15; before only +/= if I remember). ;) And I see few of the boys went behind any recommendation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eB2sa5HI4 So, the teachers should not be overloaded with recommendations. We should step in. HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HPIL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64bPC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X 

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