[VA] A digression around a digression

[Valentin Albillo]

  
{Note: this reply to C.Ret would surely belong under thread A digression around VA's SRC #012b but as this post is off-topic and quite long, I'd rather create this new thread instead of hijacking J-F's}


Hi, C.Ret, {all highlighting is mine}

(11-27-2022 02:36 AM)C.Ret Wrote:  I don't quite understand the point of further accelerating an emulator that is already over 110x the speed of real hardware.

The point is obvious: the faster the emulator, the less time it takes to solve problems and the faster the sleuthing process goes. In the past I used very extensively J-F Garnier's Emu71/DOS, which is a marvel to behold, and it ran at 240x on my now defunct ~20 yo XP system.

Once it passed away I had to use another emulator (as J-F made it clear to me in no uncertain terms that he didn't plan to release a 32- or 64-bit version of Emu71/DOS any time soon, if ever,) and eventually I was saddled with an insufferably buggy one which was supossed to run at 128x but barely achieved 64x, i.e. 3 times slower than Emu71/DOS and boy, did I miss the 3x-faster speed ! .

Quote:Or, the goal is to demonstrate that the HP-71B is too old and too slow to be used for serious purposes now.

Not at all. In my currect threads SRC #012[a-f] - Then and Now the explicitly stated main goal is, I quote:

"[...] I'll convincingly demonstrate that some advanced vintage HP calcs which were great problem-solvers back THEN in the 80's (some 40 years ago !), are NOW still perfectly capable of solving recently-proposed non-trivial problems intended to be tackled using modern 2020-era personal computers, not ancient pocket calcs."

Quote:I strive to use only real material and I see that the slightest attempt takes several hours while others waste only a few minutes of their free time to obtain more results than I could ever obtain.

It seems you've been trying to run some of the code posted in this thread and have endured run times of a few hours (potentially depleting the batteries) vs. just about 1 min. or so when using an emulator. It might be frustrating but this doesn't mean that the HP-71B can't be used in this case.

First of all, the depletion of the batteries can be avoided by simply using an AC adapter (not charger), which J-F offered to provide to you, and secondly, finding two extremely close real roots of a 10,000 (!!)-degree polynomial to 10-12-digit accuracy in a few hours on a ~40-year-old battery-powered pocket computer is nothing short of miraculous, if you think about it. You can start the program when you get to bed at night and find the solutions already computed by the time you briefly get up to take a leak ...

As for your "waste" qualification, I don't know about you but I don't consider I'm wasting my time when I do something which I find fun and instructive and nobody's asking me to do it. If it takes longer on a physical HP-71B than using an emulator so what ? The emulator also takes much longer than doing it in compiled C#, so does it mean that we must do everything in C# ? Where would be the fun, the challenge to successfully accomplish a goal against allegedly unsurmountable odds ?

Quote:The HP-71B is like me, old and outdated.

Neither the HP-71B nor you are "old and outdated". Myself, I'm much older than you and I don't consider being that either. It is a defeatist thought not supported by evidence.

Also, you say above: "I strive to use only real material" and this raises the question:

What's a real HP-71B, anyway ?

If you take the question at face value, a real HP-71B would be this:

but consider that the object depicted in the image above consists of some hardware (body, display, keyboard, internal circuitry, etc.), part of which you can see, and some software (the System ROMs' content), which you can't see but it's nevertheless there and (unlike the hardware,) it's utterly essential.

You can replace the system software (which includes the BASIC interpreter) by some other completely different, properly developed software which interfaces adequately with the hardware (say a C interpreter) and upon turning it on you'd discover that it's not an HP-71B anymore, despite the looks. It won't behave any longer like an HP-71B nor would you be able to run HP-71B programs on it, at all.

On the other hand, you can place the HP-71B's software (the System ROMs' contents) on a different hardware plus the emulation layer, and it will behave and run like the original HP-71B, so you can use it to run HP-71B programs, the code being unaware that it's running on something else which is not the original hardware.

If the looks were all-important, you might consider that the HP-71B hardware ought to be the physical original device. But I contend that this is not what the HP-71B actually is.

The "soul" of the HP-71B, its essence, what actually makes an HP-71B be an HP-71B, is its original, immaterial software, the contents of its System ROMs, which define everything it does and how it behaves. You can place them in a suitable emulator running on an arbitrary platform (Windows, Mac, Android, iOS, "DM71"), and it will behave and run programs as an HP-71B.

In the future, this might apply to human beings as well. Take your exact body and place on it someone else's brain and the resulting person won't be you, even if it would look identical to everyone just looking. On the other hand, take your brain and install it on some other body and the resulting person would be you, regardless of the body, as everyone dealing with him would attest. So the rethorical question is:  Who'd be the real you, your body with other brain or your brain in another body ?

In short: the software is what matters the most, and any device physical or virtual using the HP-71B's System ROMs' contents to accurately implement the HP-71B functionality is as real an HP-71B as the physical original is, the same way that your mind in another body would be as real you as when residing in your original body.

Hope this helps.
Best regards.

V.

[J-F Garnier]

(11-28-2022 07:05 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  

What's a real HP-71B, anyway ?

[...]
The "soul" of the HP-71B, its essence, what actually makes an HP-71B be an HP-71B, is its original, immaterial software, the contents of its System ROMs, which define everything it does and how it behaves.
[...]
In short: the software is what matters the most, and any device physical or virtual using the HP-71B's System ROMs' contents to accurately implement the HP-71B functionality is as real an HP-71B as the physical original is [...].

Valentin, you couldn't have expressed my thought better !
When I'm programming on a HP-71B emulator, I do program in HP-71B BASIC, I'm really programming a HP-71B.


Now, for more practical aspects:

(11-28-2022 07:05 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  In the past I used very extensively J-F Garnier's Emu71/DOS, which is a marvel to behold, and it ran at 240x on my now defunct ~20 yo XP system.

Once it passed away I had to use another emulator (as J-F made it clear to me in no uncertain terms that he didn't plan to release a 32- or 64-bit version of Emu71/DOS any time soon, if ever,) and eventually I was saddled with an insufferably buggy one which was supossed to run at 128x but barely achieved 64x, i.e. 3 times slower than Emu71/DOS and boy, did I miss the 3x-faster speed ! .

First, as I already told you (too many times?), there is already an excellent HP-71B emulator for Windows. Even if it doesn't provide the same integrated environment as Emu71/DOS does, I never understood your reluctance to use it, and your preference for a poorer environment.

My usual HP-71B programming environment is Emu71/DOS running inside DOSBox for its ease of use, it provides me about 10x speed relative to the HP-71B, which is enough for many purposes. This is what HP could have provided with a 8MHz Saturn HP-71B, so still in line with the spirit of HP vintage machines.
When I really need faster speed, I then transfer the program to Emu71/Win very easily using a common disc image.
In the past I also tried Emu71/DOS inside VirtualBox running DOS that gives the native Emu71/DOS performance, but the file sharing is much less easy.

J-F

[EdS2]

For me, the important thing here is that there is more than one way to enjoy our hobby, and none of those is right, or indeed wrong.

A person might enjoy the physicality and authenticity of the calculator itself: the feel, the smell, the sound, the display and the keyboard, the weight and balance.

A person might enjoy the facilities of the calculator: the functions, the features, the accuracy, the programmability.

The way I read C.Ret's original message, is that it was something of a spoiler to their enjoyment of the real article, with its relatively slow performance, when people using emulators could produce results and perform experiments so much faster.

It's a shame, that someone should feel this way, because i don't really see a way around it, other than to try to have some challenges and threads strictly disallow emulators. But as we've seen, instructions like that are not actually rules - people can do as they wish, and sometimes they will, whether through enthusiasm, or not-too-careful reading, or whatever reason.

It's not clear to me that one person can persuade another person that their way of enjoying the hobby could be changed - it's not clear to me that we can change our preferences just by deciding to.

However, i think we can try to understand each other, and understand the variety of experience, even if we can't feel it.

And we can be tolerant and forgiving, in case people do things which we would prefer they didn't do. I think in almost all cases, no harm is intended. We should always be generous in supposing what someone's motivation might be.

[PeterP]

I find Valentin's word's about the soul beautiful and inspiring.

I enjoy my physical HP41 - original hardware and software, my HP41CL - some original hardware and software, my i41CX Emulator, as well as SDK41 for MCODE adventures. And they all bring joy to me in different ways and at different times. Which I think is what EdS2 is alluding to.

And I would think(hope) that my friends and family would enjoy my software even if it were sitting on an emulator, just as long as its me. Thinking about it - for most of you here, I only know your software - I would pass you on the street without knowing. And I get tremendous enjoyment out of reading, listening, and learning from you!

[Valentin Albillo]

.
Hi, J-F Garnier, EdS2 and PeterP,

Thanks for posting to this tread, now a few comments on what you said ...

J-F Garnier Wrote:Valentin, you couldn't have expressed my thought better !

Thank you, Jean-François, glad we think alike about this.

J-F Garnier Wrote:When I'm programming on a HP-71B emulator, I do program in HP-71B BASIC, I'm really programming a HP-71B.

Indeed, I feel exactly like that, and I've felt like that since you very generously provided me with your wondrous Emu71/DOS several decades ago.

J-F Garnier Wrote:First, as I already told you (too many times?), there is already an excellent HP-71B emulator for Windows [...] I never understood your reluctance to use it, and your preference for a poorer environment.

"Poorer" is not the word but I can't post the correct one in a family-friendly forum like this, just as I can't post here the words that would apply to its developer for taking the money and never correcting even a few of its most egregious problems or even bothering to answer the complaints of his paying customers over the years.

As for "I never understood your reluctance to use it" I've explained why time and again in the past so to avoid being stuck in a loop I'd suggest that we reach a gentlemen's agreement: I'll never ask you again to release a 32-/64-bit version of your Emu71/DOS and in return you'll never ask me again why I'm "reluctant" to use the "excellent HP-71B emulator for Windows". Deal ?

J-F Garnier Wrote:My usual HP-71B programming environment is [...] In the past I also tried Emu71/DOS inside VirtualBox running DOS that gives the native Emu71/DOS performance, but the file sharing is much less easy.

I do appreciate very much your most kind attempt to help me, J-F, you can always be sure of that.

EdS2 Wrote:The way I read C.Ret's original message, is that it was something of a spoiler to their enjoyment of the real article, with its relatively slow performance, when people using emulators could produce results and perform experiments so much faster.

As the song says, "That's life !". It's like freely deciding to travel to a distant location in a wonderful vintage car you own and cherish, then being upset because people using modern, faster cars get there much sooner. Essentially it's a "You cannot have your cake and eat it too" conundrum.

EdS2 Wrote:[...] i don't really see a way around it, other than to try to have some challenges and threads strictly disallow emulators.

That ain't gonna happen, at least not in my threads. Consider that, apart from emulators typically running faster and thus allowing for quicker sleuthing and results, they are also utterly indispensable for interested people who do not own the vintage calc in question and can't/won't spend a possibly considerable amount of money and time to acquire one when they can get a perfectly adequate emulator for free with just a few clicks.

EdS2 Wrote:And we can be tolerant and forgiving, in case people do things which we would prefer they didn't do. I think in almost all cases, no harm is intended. We should always be generous in supposing what someone's motivation might be.

Nice words in general, though I fail to see how they'd apply in this particular case. My Problem 2 can be solved on a physical HP-71B in just 1 hour 18 min. (my solution) or perhaps even less (others'), which is perfectly tolerable and even outstanding, and the fact than an emulator can do it in 1 min is irrelevant.

Come to that, a compiled C# executable possibly might do it in milliseconds. So what ? Should I allow people to use C# or Excel on a fast laptop to solve the problems I've intended and carefully chosen specifically for vintage HP calcs, so that certain people I won't name would have it their way ?

PeterP Wrote:I find Valentin's word's about the soul beautiful and inspiring.

Thank you very much, I'm truly glad you do.

PeterP Wrote:And I would think(hope) that my friends and family would enjoy my software even if it were sitting on an emulator, just as long as its me.

Of course they would !

PeterP Wrote:Thinking about it - for most of you here, I only know your software - I would pass you on the street without knowing. And I get tremendous enjoyment out of reading, listening, and learning from you!

Excellent, deep reflection, which absolutely makes my point about the mind, the "software", being what makes us us, whether we are a sentient biological being or a vintage programmable calculator.


Thanks to all of you for your very interesting & worthwhile posts, and

Best regards.
V.