(71B) FORTH questions
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07-25-2023, 03:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2023 04:39 PM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #41
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
From your link:
Quote:Standard Forth defines no words for character-aligning addresses; in Forth-2012 all addresses are character-aligned.71B Forth follow as much as possible the FORTH-83 standard, so cell words are not implemented here. Also, I am not a Saturn specialist here, but to my knowledge, word, ahum, nibble alignment is not an issue with the 71B processor. edit: changed standard version from 1979 to 1983 |
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07-25-2023, 03:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2023 02:00 PM by floppy.)
Post: #42
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(07-25-2023 03:02 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: From your link:Fine. But. I have a program in gforth and want to translate in Forth71B. It means I should define the equivalent of CELLS. Example my Forth71B wording for the gforth D= is : D= 2OVER 2OVER D< IF 2DROP 2DROP FALSE ELSE 2SWAP D< IF FALSE ELSE TRUE THEN THEN ; : D= ( d d -- ?) ROT = ROT ROT = AND ; or another one.. : >= 2DUP = IF = ELSE SWAP < THEN ; or another one.. (more to come the next weeks/months) : CHAR ASC ; HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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07-25-2023, 06:05 PM
Post: #43
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(06-16-2023 05:39 PM)Giuseppe Donnini Wrote: I can, therefore, confirm that the bug was indeed fixed in ROM revision 2CDCC. Here is my own disassembly of GETTIM for both the 1BBBB and the 2CDCC revisions.I'm late to the party, so I may just misunderstand the issue, but even this fixed code looks wrong to me because it assumes that when value1 != value2, value 2 is the correct one. Shouldn't it basically loop until it reads two consecutive values that are the same? |
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07-25-2023, 06:38 PM
Post: #44
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(07-25-2023 06:05 PM)David Hayden Wrote:(06-16-2023 05:39 PM)Giuseppe Donnini Wrote: I can, therefore, confirm that the bug was indeed fixed in ROM revision 2CDCC. Here is my own disassembly of GETTIM for both the 1BBBB and the 2CDCC revisions.I'm late to the party, so I may just misunderstand the issue, but even this fixed code looks wrong to me because it assumes that when value1 != value2, value 2 is the correct one. Shouldn't it basically loop until it reads two consecutive values that are the same? No, what the code does is: read the timer 2 times, if both values agree that's ok, else immediately read the timer a third time, that value will be ok because the timer changes only every 1/512s. J-F |
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07-26-2023, 05:02 PM
Post: #45
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
AGAIN the topic TIME..
I want to use an application where the milliseconds, for time delay, are used. Is there any way to get a HH.MMSSsss output in the code submitted previously? else my idea would have to count between TIME1 and TIME1+5s in a loop, see how many it was as incrementals of a counter (let say 3000), then use the number of incrementals later to identity the value of a millisecond (in the case above, it would be 3000/5 = 600 increments for 1 sec which means an increment by 1 would be already 1ms). HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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07-26-2023, 08:17 PM
Post: #46
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
The clock in the 71B only has resolution to 0.01 seconds, so milliseconds are not possible.
--Bob Prosperi |
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07-27-2023, 08:05 AM
Post: #47
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(07-26-2023 08:17 PM)rprosperi Wrote: The clock in the 71B only has resolution to 0.01 seconds, so milliseconds are not possible.If I understand now, the minimum precision and the minimum cycle time is 10ms. Is there any overview anywhere how many 0.01s few forth commands are consuming? example SWAP SWAP (no effect at all on the stack). HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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07-27-2023, 11:20 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-28-2023 10:19 PM by Garth Wilson.)
Post: #48
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(07-27-2023 08:05 AM)floppy Wrote: Is there any overview anywhere how many 0.01s few forth commands are consuming? example Many of the Forth words seemed to have been written a lazy way of just handing them off to BASIC and then returning the effects, along with all the overhead of doing so, and I have said before that I was able to speed up many of the Forth words, often dramatically, by re-writing, them, not even resorting to assembly language. CHR$ was the greatest as I remember, at 14x, going from 13.5ms to under 1ms. Bob Prosperi has asked me to write these up, but it turned out to be a huge job, because my documentation is not all in one place, nor organized, and partly because I have hardly touched my 71's in a couple of decades or more, so I would need a lot of review to refresh my mind on how to use the 71. Consequently, I have not succeeded so far in writing this stuff up. However, here are a few timings I have penciled in in the manual for the 82441A Forth module: " 4ms for 1 character, no noticeable increase for 11 characters * multiplying 123H by 45H took 2.73ms, and 1 x 1 took 1.88ms + (also - ) 0.3ms +! 370µs -TRAILING on a string of ABCDEFGHIJKL took 5.54ms 0 260µs 0< 270µs 0= about 265µs 0> about 275µs 1/X about 7ms 2 220µs 2* (also 2/ ) about 325µs 2+ (also 2- and 5+ and 5- ) 250µs 2DROP 215µs 2DUP 235µs 2OVER 255µs 2SWAP 0.37ms 4N@ 1.9ms < 5 A < took 315µs, and A 5 - took 335µs = 280µs > 5 A > took 330µs, and A 5 > took 352µs >R >R R> takes 0.6ms @ 285µs ABS 170µs for n>=0, 200µs for n<0 AND 255µs ASC 1.59ms You can do BEGIN...AGAIN about 330µs per loop faster than BEGIN -1 UNTIL if you define: Code: : AGAIN ?comp 1 ?PAIRS branch HERE - , ; IMMEDIATE C! 336µs C@ 290µs C@+ about 4.6ms CHR@ 13.5ms CMOVE moving 10 characters took about 1.4ms CONSTANT 260µs to return a constant by referring to it after it's created COUNT 324µs DECIMAL almost 2ms! DO...+LOOP DO 10 +LOOP took about 1.75ms per loop. DO...LOOP An empty DO LOOP loops about a thousand times per second. DROP 200µs DUP 218µs END$ by itself took 54ms when used in " ABCDEFGHIJKL" W$ S! 5 END$. LEFT$ and RIGHT$ were about the same. HEX took almost 2ms! I 261µs IF...THEN 0 IF THEN takes about 1.2ms. -1 IF THEN takes about 1.1ms. J 273µs M* by itself took an average of 6ms when used in HEX 1000 0 DO M* LOOP M/ by itself took an average of 15.44ms when used in HEX 1000 0 DO 12345 M/ LOOP MAX (and also MIN) about 4ms MAXLEN 2.12ms N@ 271µs NOT 240µs NULL$ 8.79ms! OVER 230µs PICK 4 PICK took 330µs ROT 375µs S! a 9-character string took 10.15ms S<& concatenating a 10-character string and a 9-character string took 13.2ms S= In " ABCDEFGHI" 2DUP W$ S! WHO$ S! W$ WHO$ S=, the S= took 2.55ms; but replacing WHO$ with just a letter A, S= took 1.173ms. S>& Concatenating " JKLMNOPQRS" and " ABCDEFGHI" took 16.08ms. STRING Returning str after creation takes 350µs. SUB$ In " ABCDEFGHIJK" W$ S! W$ 5 7 SUB$, the SUB$ took 52ms. SWAP about 300µs VAL 48ms VARIABLE After a variable is created, returning its address takes 222µs. http://WilsonMinesCo.com (Lots of HP-41 links at the bottom of the links page, at http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html#hp41 ) |
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07-31-2023, 03:41 PM
Post: #49
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
Step 15 its a bit different (2048) CAT :TAPE NAME S TYPE LEN DATE TIME TIMEASM TEXT 2048 07/31/23 16:22 Step 18 seems stuck " TIMEASM:TAPE" ASSEMBLE PASS 1 . missing/multiple file type TIME FTH ERR:TIME not recognized HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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07-31-2023, 07:21 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2023 07:38 PM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #50
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
I just redid all the steps and it is working on my side.
Just in case line ending was an issue LF (unix) vs CR+LF (windows) I did the following on macOS: Code: bbedit timeasm_osx.txt // copy & paste the FORTH source code below I did the following on Windows: Code: "c:\Program Files\Notepad++\notepad++.exe" timeasm_win.txt // copy & paste the FORTH source code below FORTH source code Code:
(07-31-2023 03:41 PM)floppy Wrote: Step 15 its a bit different (2048)Yep, I get the same size, I probably added a few spaces and the file was on the edge between block sizes. (07-31-2023 03:41 PM)floppy Wrote: Step 18 seems stuckYou probably missed some of the source code. Using EMU71 + ILPER I was able to load, compile, execute for both files: v71time_osx.dat and v71time_win.dat. Sylvain edit: for the source code, try "View a Printable Version" , then select page 3 and copy paste the source code. |
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08-01-2023, 10:10 AM
Post: #51
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
Difference to previous HowTos: my system is a Debian 64bits. I search in that direction before perhaps moving into a Win11 environment.
HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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08-01-2023, 10:12 AM
Post: #52
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(08-01-2023 10:10 AM)floppy Wrote: Difference to previous HowTos: my system is a Debian 64bits. I search in that direction before perhaps moving into a Win11 environment. It's usually possible to find Windows install discs online and use them in a virtualbox on Linux. It ain't OVER 'till it's 2 PICK |
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08-01-2023, 11:11 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2023 12:34 PM by floppy.)
Post: #53
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
Using rob DEV-HB.DAT was so far weird for me too: with CAT :HDRIVE1 it output only STRINGLX on my EMU71.
pyilper see the content (see attached picture). Just EMU71 dont list it. lifdir DEV-HB.DAT Quote:Volume : , formatted : 11/12/11 19:56:15 However " FTHUTILA:TAPE" ASSEMBLE is making "PASS 1..2 .............." fine. Next issue.. " FTHUTILF:HDRIVE1" LOADF .. dictionnary full. I had several 32k modules on Port5 since I wanted to cope to my HP71B. Same issue with a 128k RAM Module in Port5. Since I have no 128k HW module for my HP71B, how to setup modules for making Forth working? try to buy 2x 62k RAM Modules or a 128k RAM? 4x32k Modules and Forth/assembler in Multimod? few advices are welcomed. The battle of WINE Linux Win-exe EMU71 Forth ASSEMBLER ILPER ILvideo80 Pyilper is on-going. And the DM41X I got 1 week ago is dead already after 1 week. swissmicro has so far a very silent mail answering.. :-( I need holiday. Update 1. Rob file makes Pass 1 and Pass 2.. looks good Update 2: Dictionnary full HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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08-01-2023, 12:29 PM
Post: #54
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(08-01-2023 11:11 AM)floppy Wrote: However " FTHUTILA:TAPE" ASSEMBLE is making "PASS 1..2 .............." lets wait.. probably fine. The Forth ROM assembler is always quite slow, but especially so when processing from a source file on the loop! Although " FTHUTILA:TAPE" ASSEMBLE will clearly work OK, it is much faster if instead, you copy the assembler source file to main RAM first and then assemble it locally. To do so, use: COPY FTHUTILA:TAPE TO :MAIN " FTHUTILA" ASSEMBLE --Bob Prosperi |
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08-01-2023, 12:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2023 01:02 PM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #55
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(08-01-2023 11:11 AM)floppy Wrote: Using rob DEV-HB.DAT was so far weird for me too: with CAT :HDRIVE1 it output only STRINGLX on my EMU71.File catalog listing is not automatic, you have to use the down/up arrow key to see the next/previous file in CAT mode. edit: and right/left arrow to see detailed informations of the displayed file. |
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08-01-2023, 01:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2023 01:05 PM by floppy.)
Post: #56
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(08-01-2023 12:44 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:+1(08-01-2023 11:11 AM)floppy Wrote: Using rob DEV-HB.DAT was so far weird for me too: with CAT :HDRIVE1 it output only STRINGLX on my EMU71.File catalog listing is not automatic, you have to use the down/up arrow key to see the next/previous file in CAT mode. Learner at work.. Thanks. .. "FULL DICTIONNARY" still there with a 128k RAM in Port5 of EMU71. HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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08-01-2023, 01:25 PM
Post: #57
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(08-01-2023 01:03 PM)floppy Wrote:(08-01-2023 12:44 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: File catalog listing is not automatic, you have to use the down/up arrow key to see the next/previous file in CAT mode.+1 Code: FORTH [ENDLINE] |
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08-01-2023, 02:33 PM
Post: #58
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(08-01-2023 01:25 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:Works. You are the boss. Rob too. And all other. Now I have to understand how works TIME since I was thinking it would be H.MMSS as output (according translator manual). However TIME TIME F- F. in a quite slow motion show -5.41. Negativ is fine. Result could be 5.41s . more to read now in the holiday time.. HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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08-01-2023, 03:14 PM
Post: #59
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
(08-01-2023 02:33 PM)floppy Wrote: Now I have to understand how works TIME since I was thinking it would be H.MMSS as output (according translator manual).From the assembly source code: TIME : Read system clock in seconds; return result to X (in floating point 4-level stack) (08-01-2023 02:33 PM)floppy Wrote: However TIME TIME F- F. in a quite slow motion show -5.41. Negativ is fine. Result could be 5.41s . more to read now in the holiday time..try: Code: TIME Manuals ... |
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08-01-2023, 03:46 PM
Post: #60
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RE: (71B) FORTH questions
Ok. The TIME we uploaded is "Read system clock in seconds; return result to X". Means thats not the same spec as the TIME from the translator module manual. Fine for me. Due to the reading precision of 1/512 = 0.002 it looks like thats the maximum precision to be achieved by activating TIME.
Having TIME TIME F- FABS F. show the execution is > ONE full TIME sequence and I could only get minimum 0.06 (mostly 0.07) in EMU71 (I have to check what it will be on the hardware) so.. for programming for example random numbers, their difference will be minimum 0.06 etc. the question remain: what setup is the best for Forth 71B? - 2x 62KB RAM & ROM Forth or - 1x 128KB & ROM Forth or - 4x32KB and move the Forth/assembler into Multimod? HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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