16c overlay in TheCalculatorStore

[dmh]

It looks great!

Any chance you will be doing a 15C overlay for repurposed 12C+ ? Maybe the market isn't big enough though.

(08-08-2023 05:47 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Hi,

it is now in production in Hong Kong and scheduled for delivery before month end - we have sent prototypes to some users already. We want it to be used by our HP15c customers - hence the discount.

It looks something like this:

[vassilisprevelakis]

(08-11-2023 02:44 AM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  So in the end, technically speaking it's quite possible to turn a current 12C into a 15C CE with embedded 16C, as it's actually been done already. "Been there, done that."

Is there a "howto" guide for doing this?

I am sure this will help HP-12c sales a lot :-)

Cheers

Vassilis
http://www.series80.org

[Divasson]

(09-11-2023 12:24 PM)dmh Wrote:  It looks great!

Any chance you will be doing a 15C overlay for repurposed 12C+ ? Maybe the market isn't big enough though.

Hi, we have done it and have some units. However, after thorough considerations we have found that there could be civil responsibility issues that could impact on us if we keep on commercializing both the HP16c and HP15c overlays - and that's the reason the HP16c has been withdrawn from the website.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(09-12-2023 06:08 PM)Divasson Wrote:  ...we have found that there could be civil responsibility issues that could impact on us if we keep on commercializing both the HP16c and HP15c overlays...

Really? These are 40 year old calculators. Used exclusively by collectors and enthusiasts. Who of us would be vile enough to file a lawsuit if a modified calculator gives incorrect results?

(09-12-2023 06:08 PM)Divasson Wrote:  ... and that's the reason the HP16c has been withdrawn from the website.

What a pity. I hope the already ordered and paid overlays will be delivered. Herewith I promise in front of the whole world as witness that I shall not sue you or your company or the maker of the overlay if using the overlay leads to false calculations :-)

Regards
Max

[Valentin Albillo]

.
Hi, vassilisprevelakis,

vassilisprevelakis Wrote:Is there a "howto" guide for doing this?

I suppose there is but I'm not privy to the details, the members of the HP-15C CE's team surely are so you might try to ask them. I seem to remember that it requires some special cable and/or connector.

Quote:I am sure this will help HP-12c sales a lot :-)

I seriously doubt it ...

Regards.
V.

[mfleming]

(09-12-2023 06:30 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  What a pity. I hope the already ordered and paid overlays will be delivered.

Mine arrived today (North Carolina, USA) in a padded mailing envelope. Overlay was in the custom envelope shown in the second post. I split the cellophane wrapper along the side to avoid damage to the overlay. It's very handsome looking and a nice fit. I'll play around with it this evening to see how well it settles onto the keyboard with use.

(09-12-2023 06:30 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Herewith I promise in front of the whole world as witness that I shall not sue you or your company or the maker of the overlay if using the overlay leads to false calculations :-)

Me too

[brouhaha]

(09-12-2023 06:30 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  

(09-12-2023 06:08 PM)Divasson Wrote:  ...we have found that there could be civil responsibility issues that could impact on us if we keep on commercializing both the HP16c and HP15c overlays...

Really? These are 40 year old calculators. Used exclusively by collectors and enthusiasts. Who of us would be vile enough to file a lawsuit if a modified calculator gives incorrect results?

No, the 16C overlay The Calculator Store made is intended for use on the 15C CE, which is brand spanking new.

I have no connection with The Calculator Store, HP, Moravia, or Royal, except as a customer, so I definitely do not in any way speak for them.

I'm not privy to the details of The Calculator Store's business or their legal analysis of this issue, but I _suspect_ the problem is that there are a few serious bugs in the undocumented and unsupported 16C mode. They may worry about liability if they sell a 16C overlay to someone with a 15C CE, or even a recent (2015 and newer) 12C, and the buyer is dissatisfied due not to any issue with the overlay, but due to the issues in the unsupported 16C mode of the calculator. (Even though The Calculator Store has AFAIK no control over that.)

Having partially reverse-engineered the original (1982) HP-16C microcode, and thus being familiar with some of its operation in areas that relate to the bugs, I have offered advice and suggestions to the appopriate firmware developer for possible ways to resolve the bugs in the unsupported 16C mode of the 15C CE. However, there has been no official announcement regarding whether or when there might be updated firmware.

Although the 15C CE is capable of being reflashed with different firmware, there is no method for a normal end user to do so, as it requires a cable that is not commercially available. I strongly _suspect_ that HP, Moravia, and Royal are not enthusiastic about offering any service to update calculator firmware for end users, _especially_ with regard to unofficial, undocumented, and unsupported features.

[Dol]

(09-12-2023 06:08 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Hi, we have done it and have some units. However, after thorough considerations we have found that there could be civil responsibility issues that could impact on us if we keep on commercializing both the HP16c and HP15c overlays - and that's the reason the HP16c has been withdrawn from the website.

The overlay can be considered a toy, hence with the notice that this is a piece of plastic which do not come with any warranty or implicit functionality can not open you up for any civil responsibilities regarding the functionality of the calculator on which it is applied.

[amalahama]

(09-12-2023 09:49 PM)brouhaha Wrote:  [quote='Maximilian Hohmann' pid='177272' dateline='1694543420']
Although the 15C CE is capable of being reflashed with different firmware, there is no method for a normal end user to do so, as it requires a cable that is not commercially available.

Making a custom cable doesn't seem too difficult for what I've seen. I hope they fix HP-16C bugs in the future and provide the firmware for those brave enough to flash

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(09-12-2023 09:49 PM)mfleming Wrote:  Mine arrived today (North Carolina, USA).

I found mine in the mail today (Germany). It is extremely well made, I wonder why no one has come up with this way to make overlays before. From a meter away one can't even tell there is an overlay on the keyboard.

Regards
Max

[mfleming]

I'd like to know the manufacturing process myself. I know a stiff plastic sheet can be softened with heat and then molded to a template using a vacuum. Would the same approach work with this material? Think of the possibilities with the ACT chip or Classic CPU replacement board. Switch overlay to match emulated model

[jjohnson873]

(08-11-2023 12:47 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Hello,

just tried it out - ordering the overlay with the discount code (75% !) for previous customers works just fine even if ordered separately from the calculator.

Looking forward to see it work - the HP-16C is one of the very few calculators still missing from my collection so this will be the closest approximation to the real thing.

Regards
Max

Oddly......I looked on the TheCalculatorStore website, but, alas, did not find the HP-16c overlay. I just received my HP-15c Collector's Edition (SN: 09090). It would be wonderful to be able to use my HP-15c Collector's Edition as an HP-16c! Perhaps this product isn't released yet? ~ Jim J. ~

[Steve Simpkin]

(09-14-2023 12:12 AM)jjohnson873 Wrote:  ...
Oddly......I looked on the TheCalculatorStore website, but, alas, did not find the HP-16c overlay. I just received my HP-15c Collector's Edition (SN: 09090). It would be wonderful to be able to use my HP-15c Collector's Edition as an HP-16c! Perhaps this product isn't released yet? ~ Jim J. ~

They stopped selling the HP-16C overlay because of the bug discovered in the CE's HP-16C emulation while in DEC display mode.
See: https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-20281.html

[Divasson]

Regarding overlays, now that we have found a way of producing them that seems to work well, which other overlays would you be interested on?

I can think of:

• Woodstock series - to be able to use the panamatic modules on any Woodstock body
• HP41c series (and then which modules?)
• Any other?
  

It implies some 3D drawing and labeling, which takes some quality time (when you have another job, that is), and then creating moulds - but once done, it is done and the labeling can be changed quite easily

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(10-12-2023 02:40 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Woodstock series - to be able to use the panamatic modules on any Woodstock body

Yes, definitely - the whole series!

(10-12-2023 02:40 PM)Divasson Wrote:  [*]Any other?

Yes: WP34s and WP31s to avoid the nasty stickers!

Thank you so much for your efforts!

Regards
Max

[rprosperi]

(10-12-2023 02:40 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Regarding overlays, now that we have found a way of producing them that seems to work well, which other overlays would you be interested on?

I can think of:

• Woodstock series - to be able to use the panamatic modules on any Woodstock body
• HP41c series (and then which modules?)
• Any other?
  

I think these would be quite popular:

[*] Woodstock - 25E and 29E, allowing any Woodstock device to act as the 2 most powerful/popular. I think most fans wanting to use a 21, 22 or 27 will prefer an original and not use an overlay
[*] Spice - 34C and 38C allowing any Spice device to act as the high-end Scientific or Finance models. For the same reasons, I think there is far less demand for 31, 32, 33 and 37 overlays.
[*] 41 Models - This one is hard! Maybe best to ask Michael Fehlhammer which 41 overlays he has been selling for over 9 years are the most popular. I can list my favorites but this will vary widely from user to user. That said, Angel's AMC-OSX seems to be by far one of the most widely used 41 ROMS, and IMHO should be a top-priority part of any list of overlays.

[mfleming]

(10-12-2023 02:40 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Regarding overlays, now that we have found a way of producing them that seems to work well, which other overlays would you be interested on?

I can think of:

<snip>

I'd add the HP-71B even though there are few overlays for it. The one that really comes to mind though is the two overlays for the C71 calculator ROM. One emulated all of the Voyager engineering/business calculators (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C) and the other the 16C programmers calculator. There was an overlay for the 41C emulator. Others are listed on Matthias site:
https://www.hp-collection.org/71database.html

~Mark
   

[tight-disguise]

great idea, but personally I'd make all the buttons with overlay, including power, f, g and enter. that would make them all the same and with the same height and feel.

[Divasson]

Regarding the suggestion about the WP34s and WP31s - it does not make a lot of sense to provide a solution for a hardware for which there is no current supply and where everyone using it has already a solution installed - IMHO.

However, we have a calculator in production, the HP10bII+, which can also be repurposed (and the repurposing using USB protocol is far easier than with the serial cable, believe me). This calculator has a good keyboard and a lot of keys (40) - it is just missing alphanumeric entry. The only thing we need is the cable, which we're working on. Anyone interested in tackling the project?

[Steve Simpkin]

(10-15-2023 05:23 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Regarding the suggestion about the WP34s and WP31s - it does not make a lot of sense to provide a solution for a hardware for which there is no current supply and where everyone using it has already a solution installed - IMHO.

However, we have a calculator in production, the HP10bII+, which can also be repurposed (and the repurposing using USB protocol is far easier than with the serial cable, believe me). This calculator has a good keyboard and a lot of keys (40) - it is just missing alphanumeric entry. The only thing we need is the cable, which we're working on. Anyone interested in tackling the project?

As you mention, I think the big drawback with repurposing the HP10bII+ will be its limited 12 digit 7-segment display. Any project worth doing would probably be too much work for such a limited display. The HP 20b/30b platform at least had a small dot matrix section to use for text which the WP34s/31s project used to good effect.