What theodolite?

[HP-Collection]

For my collection I would like to buy a theodolite I can combine with the following parts I own:

- CO-OP Data Collector (as seen on my website)
- Geodimeter Data Recording unit (as seen on my website)
- HP-48 (I maybe need the cable to connect the calculator)

What theodolite (type, not only brand) do you recomment?

For documentation I added a similar unit I already own (Kern brand)

Best regards
Matthias
http://www.hp-collection.org

[Bill Zimmerly]

This has to be one of the most educational websites I know! Until now, I had no idea what a THEODOLITE was.

[d b]

(09-16-2014 12:20 PM)HP-Collection Wrote:  For my collection I would like to buy a theodolite I can combine with the following parts I own:

- CO-OP Data Collector (as seen on my website)
- Geodimeter Data Recording unit (as seen on my website)
- HP-48 (I maybe need the cable to connect the calculator)

What theodolite (type, not only brand) do you recomment?

For documentation I added a similar unit I already own (Kern brand)

Best regards
Matthias
http://www.hp-collection.org

Some things:
-A few years ago, Sweden's venerable Geodimeter was acquired by California's GPS giant Trimble in a move clearly acknowledging the limits of voodoo technology. You might be able to find specs through them, especially if they have a corporate archivist.
-You may find that another manufacturer uses the same protocol and you could possibly be able to widen your search to include some other gun that will also work with the program you have. The protocol being the order of the data and the separator used.
-At least one geodimeter instrument will only record part of each shot onto a TDS 48 unit, so unless it's cheap; you might not want that one. If memory serves me, it was Horiz dist and elevation difference (or conversely slope distance with zenith angle). Like the HP 3810b, no horizontal angle could be sent but it would be recorded by a more traditional input/storage device, such as pencil and paper. Point number and description will be handled in your data collector.

As to "what is a theodolite?" Here in the states, general usage was that:
-A fine European transit like a Wild, Kern, or Zeiss would be called a Theodolite.
-A U.S. made theodolite like a beautiful brass K&E would be called a transit.
So the answer to "what's the difference between a transit and a theodolite?" was: "about seven hundred bucks".

[ColinJDenman]

(09-16-2014 12:20 PM)HP-Collection Wrote:  For my collection I would like to buy a theodolite

Didn't HP make their own?

[sleibson]

Yes, HP's Civil Engineering Division (CED) in Loveland made surveyor tools from the early 1970s to 1983. A CED instrument I used in an unsuccessful attempt to fight a bogus Colorado State Trooper speeding ticket was a fussy box that required you to fiddle with a knob to null a meter. The division's last instrument was the 3820A Total Station. These boxes combined precision optics with handheld calculator components. See the September, 1980 HP Journal for details. (http://www.amerisurv.com/docs/HewlettPackardJournal.pdf)

Here's a quote from the Agilent History Center:

"1/5/90
Bruce D. Badger, President, Maptech, Inc. to WRH on behalf of “a small group of us who formerly worked with the now closed Civil Engineering Division at the Loveland, CO facility. We all started in 1970-1972 and stayed until the doors were closed in 1983. After a short term with Wild Heerbrugg, who was a competitor of CED, we decided to keep things going and form our own company. We are even helping to keep the old 3820A (Bear) alive with our own field data collection device. Although the Civil Engineering Division was relatively short-lived, thousands of land surveyors still identify with the products that came out of that small Loveland division, and still occasionally call Maptech for support…We seem to have stalled at about $1.6 million/year in sales (the last 3 years)…What actions were actually planned which made a major difference in the growth of Hewlett-Packard Co. in the early stages? What mistakes were made that hindered its growth?” WRH responded 3/1/90: “I was very sorry when HP felt it had to drop out of the civil engineering field. We had a great product. I have a unit which Dave and I share occasionally and really know how good it was. However, that’s water over the dam."


The CED lab was co-located with the Desktop Computer Division lab in Loveland's building C when I joined HP in 1975. I remember there was a track mounted high above the cavernous joint lab space carrying a small target on a track used to calibrate and experiment with the CED equipment. Periodically, you could see the target move back and forth along the track.

--Steve

(09-23-2014 09:24 PM)ColinJDenman Wrote:  

(09-16-2014 12:20 PM)HP-Collection Wrote:  For my collection I would like to buy a theodolite

Didn't HP make their own?

[HP-Collection]

Yes, HP made their own, but I have a lot of SMI and TDS software cards I would like to "use". I doubt that they belong to a HP theodolite []

[ColinJDenman]

(09-24-2014 05:25 AM)sleibson Wrote:  See the September, 1980 HP Journal for details. (http://www.amerisurv.com/docs/HewlettPackardJournal.pdf)

That's the sort of thing I remember seeing ads for. Thanks for the journal. And the history. Still miss the old HP.

[d b]

(09-24-2014 05:25 AM)sleibson Wrote:  Yes, HP's Civil Engineering Division (CED) in Loveland made surveyor tools from the early 1970s to 1983. See the September, 1980 HP Journal for details. (http://www.amerisurv.com/docs/HewlettPackardJournal.pdf)
--Steve

(09-23-2014 09:24 PM)ColinJDenman Wrote:  Didn't HP make their own?

Steve;
Good find.
For about a five year period centred around your linked article; HP made what was arguably the most advanced and precise instrument on Earth, the 3820. That's quite a run, considering the lifetimes of other best-in-the-world electronic devices these days. Coupled with it's 3851A data collector it was the stuff of surveyors dreams. The Wild T-2000 that finally topped it wasn't a much better gun, but it was cheaper and lighter, with at least equally sweet glass. With five years to work on it; the data collector for the Wild was no more modern and they never have got the hang of that. Folks still buy a third party unit like the TDS from former HP employees (or that garbage Carlson) for whatever this weeks top of the line shooter is.
BTW: We met at the HP 35 anniversary party on Page Mill Rd. Good to hear from you.

[sleibson]

[/quote]

BTW: We met at the HP 35 anniversary party on Page Mill Rd. Good to hear from you.
[/quote]

Hi Den,

That HP 35 event seems like years ago now! I still remember Chung Tung looking at a cheap, Chinese, rubber-buttoned, algebraic 4-banger handed out at the event and exclaiming "I didn't design THAT!" The 4-banger is still magnetically attached to the side of my refrigerator, still unused.

--Steve

[jjb299]

For starters, most modern "total stations" (the term used for a combined angle and distance measurement machines, not "theodolites" which are only angles) use serial communications (among other means like Bluetooth). The data collector will send out a ASCII command like "**get-angle$horiz$" and the total station will reply something "#ha#123.3124" for 123 degrees, 31 minutes, 24 seconds. It is up to the data collector to know how to "speak" the language of the total station and parse data out. Usually, all brands are different, but the models within the brand don't typically change language. So, most Nikon models should be able to talk "Nikon" serial commands (to an extent).
That said, you have TDS & SMI cards for HP 48, a geodimeter brand specific unit, and a HP 41 CO-OP unit. The TDS/SMI cards come with many brands "languages" and will work for many units. The Geodimeter unit will only speak Geodimeter language. And I am very unfamiliar with the CO-OP unit, so I don't know it's capabilities. However, the CO-OP unit may just be a serial communication port and it might have come with brand-specific code modules (Nikon, Geo, Topcon, Wild). If that's the case, look for a geodimeter module for the unit.
So, to answer your question, a Geodimeter 440-series manually operated total station might be your best bet to work with all three. It's old enough to apply to the HP41 unit and the Geodimeter unit, but new enough to have serial communication. Stay away from the 600-series which is a robotically-operated unit that requires more equipment to run and might not work with the TDS cards or older Geo/HP41 controllers.
-Justin

[d b]

Justin; Yes. Having the room, the various TDS 48 revisions had software to read most instruments up to the date of manufacture. The TDS 41 system had 3 ROMs. The Road Stake / Instrument Module had a few very useful routines that didn't fit into the first Survey module and the rest of it was filled with triggering programs for various guns. They sold several versions of that because there wasn't enough room to put them all in, and few companies had more than two or three types of instruments.

[jjb299]

Den, thanks for clarifying on the CO-OP unit.
OP: If you want to see if the data collectors are talking the same Geodimeter "language", you could always wire tap into the TX signal line of the serial port and read what it is saying using a program like Putty or Hyperterminal. Try to find a command that is common to all 3 data collectors, like "send zero angle to instrument". Conversely, if you borrow a total station from someone, tap into the RX line to see what the instrument is saying.