Flush and recessed displays of hp 27s calculator.

[Vincent Weber]

(06-12-2024 04:41 PM)bxparks Wrote:  

(06-12-2024 03:57 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  $55 USD is a good price for a great calculator. The 27S might not be "programmable" in the traditional sense, but there are many use cases where the solver is quicker, easier, more intuitive, and more memory efficient than writing an RPN program.

The 27S is an algebraic calculator that's 35 years old. Besides nostalgia, I'm curious why someone would prefer the 27S over a modern algebraic calculator, for example, the Casio fx-9750GIII, which now sells for about $30 new. The 9750GIII handles everything that the 27S does, plus far more:

* multi-line LCD display
* Casio BASIC programming
* MicroPython programming
* CAS using KhiCAS addon
* graphing
* spreadsheets
* TVM
* general root solver, polynomial root solver
* complex numbers
* rational numbers
* base conversions (hex, oct, bin, dec)
* matrix, vectors, and simultaneous equations
* statistical analysis, curve fitting, statistical distributions
* standard AAA batteries (not the Li-Ion junk)
* and more...

I can understanding paying a little extra for an RPN scientific calculator, since those are no longer made. But a 35-year old algebraic calculator doesn't make sense to me.

The 27S has an equation-based language where every statement is an expression, and where you do not need any input command, you can see the variables in a menu and assign them or solve them directly. This is very simple, yet powerful and elegant, and to my knowledge this is quite unique among calculators.

[Uwe-001]

Hello,
after i read this article i have a question. The HP-14B has also a flush bezel. Is there also a version with recessed bezel existing?

(06-10-2024 01:56 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Yes, the 27S as well as the 32S and 22S came in both flush and recessed bezel designs, same as the 42S.

Bezel type
flush recessed
22S 22S
27S 27S
32S 32S
14B ?

[Rafa]

(06-12-2024 04:41 PM)bxparks Wrote:  The 27S is an algebraic calculator that's 35 years old. Besides nostalgia, I'm curious why someone would prefer the 27S over a modern algebraic calculator, for example, the Casio fx-9750GIII, which now sells for about $30 new. The 9750GIII handles everything that the 27S does, plus far more:

I can understanding paying a little extra for an RPN scientific calculator, since those are no longer made. But a 35-year old algebraic calculator doesn't make sense to me.

That's a valid point of view and a valid question, but i don't have the type of answer that would bridge a pure utilitarian stand with mine.
The Bic ballpoint does everything a ballpoint pen is meant to do, but some people would still be willing to pay 100 folds the price of a Bic for a pen that feels good in the hand, glides smoothly, has the right weight, and overall gives the user a subtle joy to use.
One is subtly happy at every opportunity to write. The quality of both pens don't impact their direct utility but it does have an effect on the user.
I don't like toyish and flimsy feel of an utilitarian calculator even though it's very capable and that's one reason i would still be happily willing to pay for an old, even algebraic, hp calculator.

[Dave Britten]

(06-12-2024 04:41 PM)bxparks Wrote:  

(06-12-2024 03:57 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  $55 USD is a good price for a great calculator. The 27S might not be "programmable" in the traditional sense, but there are many use cases where the solver is quicker, easier, more intuitive, and more memory efficient than writing an RPN program.

The 27S is an algebraic calculator that's 35 years old. Besides nostalgia, I'm curious why someone would prefer the 27S over a modern algebraic calculator, for example, the Casio fx-9750GIII, which now sells for about $30 new. The 9750GIII handles everything that the 27S does, plus far more:

The fx-9750GIII (and most all Casio graphers) are lousy at storing a library of equations, particularly if you want descriptive, multi-character variable names. The fx-5800P is a bit better at it, but you can only save equations with two-character variable names, and those can only be evaluated - if you want to run them through the numeric solver, you can only use the basic A-Z variables. The older fx-4850P also only lets you use single-letter variables, but you can at least give them descriptive labels that display when you select them with the cursor. Of course, it's nearly impossible to find an fx-4850P...

Also, none of the Casios can be used as an alarm clock.

If your needs fit within the 27S capabilities, then it's very, very good at it.

[bxparks]

(06-12-2024 07:11 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  The fx-9750GIII (and most all Casio graphers) are lousy at storing a library of equations, particularly if you want descriptive, multi-character variable names. The fx-5800P is a bit better at it, but you can only save equations with two-character variable names, and those can only be evaluated - if you want to run them through the numeric solver, you can only use the basic A-Z variables. The older fx-4850P also only lets you use single-letter variables, but you can at least give them descriptive labels that display when you select them with the cursor. Of course, it's nearly impossible to find an fx-4850P...

Also, none of the Casios can be used as an alarm clock.

I got my first Casio calculator (the 9750GIII) only 5 months ago, and I haven't had much time to play around with it, so I know very little about its programming and equation capabilities. If Casio BASIC is limited in that manner, I wonder if MycroPython supports longer variable names.

But it's funny to read a complaint about program readability with the Casios and single-variable names, on this site, where people post RPL programs which look no different than modem-noise gibberish to me. Even the RPN programs. I've written my share of them. I cannot read my own RPN programs after 2 months.

Calculators with alarm clocks, I knew I was missing something in my life. :-) In truth, I don't even wear a watch anymore. The mobile phone has completely taken over that functionality.

[rprosperi]

(06-12-2024 04:41 PM)bxparks Wrote:  I can understanding paying a little extra for an RPN scientific calculator, since those are no longer made. But a 35-year old algebraic calculator doesn't make sense to me.

It would appear you don't care for the feel of great keyboards, but no offense meant by that, just an observation. Also, by virtue of being a member here, one's built-in bias towards an HP-made machine can't be ignored.

Also, I'd generally prefer to drive a 2024 car, but there is still something awfully appealing about driving a '68 Camaro RS. Bumpy, smelly, poor gas mileage, manual everything. But I'd still pick the Camaro.

[bxparks]

(06-13-2024 02:24 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  It would appear you don't care for the feel of great keyboards, but no offense meant by that, just an observation. Also, by virtue of being a member here, one's built-in bias towards an HP-made machine can't be ignored.

Also, I'd generally prefer to drive a 2024 car, but there is still something awfully appealing about driving a '68 Camaro RS. Bumpy, smelly, poor gas mileage, manual everything. But I'd still pick the Camaro.

It's not black and white. Also the passage of time seems to have changed the priorities. I used to care more about the keyboard. But my eyes have gotten old, so now I care more about the display. I'll tolerate a bit of mushy buttons, if they don't bounce. What good are buttons that feel great but don't debounce properly (HP-15C CE). I find the old Pioneer series LCD to be pretty bad compared to modern LCDs. I also care about packing lots of interesting math functions into tiny little calculators. It's a complicated optimization problem.

Heh, I love driving a stick, but wouldn't be caught dead in a Camaro or a Corvette. :-)

[bxparks]

(06-12-2024 06:22 PM)Rafa Wrote:  I don't like toyish and flimsy feel of an utilitarian calculator even though it's very capable and that's one reason i would still be happily willing to pay for an old, even algebraic, hp calculator.

Totally understand that you want your calculator to "spark joy". I think the difference is that I don't consider the Casios (at least the 9750GIII and the CG-50 that I own) to be utilitarian. I consider them to be amazing feats of engineering: packing so much, into something so small, for such affordable prices. I just wish they were RPN.

[Steve Simpkin]

(06-13-2024 03:28 AM)bxparks Wrote:  

(06-12-2024 06:22 PM)Rafa Wrote:  I don't like toyish and flimsy feel of an utilitarian calculator even though it's very capable and that's one reason i would still be happily willing to pay for an old, even algebraic, hp calculator.

Totally understand that you want your calculator to "spark joy". I think the difference is that I don't consider the Casios (at least the 9750GIII and the CG-50 that I own) to be utilitarian. I consider them to be amazing feats of engineering: packing so much, into something so small, for such affordable prices. I just wish they were RPN.

Yes I am quite impressed by my Casio fx-991EX and color fx-CG50 and include them in my calculator rotation. I am particularly impressed by the fx-CG50's ability to get almost a year out of 4 AAA batteries despite having a backlit color LCD! I much prefer RPN/RPN and my HP-48SX is my prefered weapon of choice for work, but I do like variety when using calculators as a hobby. The Casios provide great functionality for the price, particularly the fx-9750GIII.

[Dave Britten]

(06-13-2024 02:24 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(06-12-2024 04:41 PM)bxparks Wrote:  I can understanding paying a little extra for an RPN scientific calculator, since those are no longer made. But a 35-year old algebraic calculator doesn't make sense to me.

It would appear you don't care for the feel of great keyboards, but no offense meant by that, just an observation. Also, by virtue of being a member here, one's built-in bias towards an HP-made machine can't be ignored.

Also, I'd generally prefer to drive a 2024 car, but there is still something awfully appealing about driving a '68 Camaro RS. Bumpy, smelly, poor gas mileage, manual everything. But I'd still pick the Camaro.

Bear in mind that "great keyboards" is highly subjective. I think the Casio fx-5800P keyboard is outstanding, for instance. Quite different from an HP 27S, of course, but extremely good in its own way.

[Rafa]

(06-13-2024 03:28 AM)bxparks Wrote:  Totally understand that you want your calculator to "spark joy". I think the difference is that I don't consider the Casios (at least the 9750GIII and the CG-50 that I own) to be utilitarian. I consider them to be amazing feats of engineering: packing so much, into something so small, for such affordable prices. I just wish they were RPN.

Maybe these models of casio you mentioned are well built and aren't the type that contrast with the solid build of an hp calculator. I was talking about calculators made for schools, these costs around 25€ and are almost made to be disposed, not to mention other implications of such a market where the demand for a calculator designed to be used for one stage of school, primary, middle, then high school. is repeated year after year, these disposable calcs don't always get passed. New school year new mass order. And there's a strict list of calcs permitted for the exams.
If you are a professional or an academic then of course more practical criteria factor in your choice of a calculator and the available selection will have higher quality since they are going to be used in a more demanding setting.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

I have seen a few 32s with recessed bezel on TAS. But have never come across a 22S or 27S with the recessed bezels. Are they unicorns, other than the MoHPC articles ??!! Inquiring minds (and collectors) want to know.

[ctrclckws]

(06-13-2024 02:24 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Also, I'd generally prefer to drive a 2024 car, but there is still something awfully appealing about driving a '68 Camaro RS. Bumpy, smelly, poor gas mileage, manual everything. But I'd still pick the Camaro.

My choice would be an original era Mustang, since I grew up with Mustangs. Yes, it would be a manual, possibly swapped for a modern powertrain with 5 or 6 gears.

Not really a fan of all these new electronic, connected cars that phone home and report on the driver's habits.

Edward / ctrclckws

[rprosperi]

(06-14-2024 07:04 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  I have seen a few 32s with recessed bezel on TAS. But have never come across a 22S or 27S with the recessed bezels. Are they unicorns, other than the MoHPC articles ??!! Inquiring minds (and collectors) want to know.

This is a common topic, e.g. here: https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap...read=89404

27S machines with recessed bezel are much less common than the flat type, but definitely out there and show up on eBay from time to time, that's where I got the 2 I own, and they were not more expensive than the flat display type.

The 22S with recessed bezel OTOH seems to be in the nearly unicorn category. The photos of the 22S on this site's device summary area (https://www.hpmuseum.org/hp22s.htm) is of the recessed type, so clearly not just fiction. Many members here have been looking for one for a long time to no avail, however Jean-Francois Garnier acquired one about 1-2 years ago (though I can't find the post at the moment) through normal channels (local auction site IIRC, or perhaps local flea market). It would seem these were manufactured and sold, but apparently only for a very short period.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(06-10-2024 02:24 PM)Rafa Wrote:  For whatever reason, it's near nonexistent in Europe, every 27s on offer i found on was from the US and they were getting sold fairly quick. Like not so quick that it would be snatched in a Blitzkrieg auction but it also wouldn't be ignored for too long once the price comes down to between 50 and 75 USD. i paid 55 USD. Did you get your for similar price?

Of my seven ones I got the cheapest for 3€, maximum for $67. Best bet on a NIB one for €46.50.
Only two of them from USA.

[carey]

(06-12-2024 04:41 PM)bxparks Wrote:  …I can understanding paying a little extra for an RPN scientific calculator, since those are no longer made. But a 35-year old algebraic calculator doesn't make sense to me.

This is a reasonable perspective but another view re: the 17b/19b/27s is the following. While programming languages are often regarded as interchangeable, the strengths and weaknesses of each language subtly affects the choice of problems they are applied to. The 17b/19b/27s unique solver “programming language” is a good fit for defining functions from sums and series.

[J-F Garnier]

(06-15-2024 01:10 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  The 22S with recessed bezel OTOH seems to be in the nearly unicorn category. The photos of the 22S on this site's device summary area (https://www.hpmuseum.org/hp22s.htm) is of the recessed type, so clearly not just fiction. Many members here have been looking for one for a long time to no avail, however Jean-Francois Garnier acquired one about 1-2 years ago (though I can't find the post at the moment) through normal channels (local auction site IIRC, or perhaps local flea market). It would seem these were manufactured and sold, but apparently only for a very short period.

Indeed, I found one two years ago on regular eBay but for France (or Europe, can't remember) only.

See:





J-F

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

Ok, I keep looking then! The 22S with recessed display look so nice, in my opinion. Thank you for sharing your find!

[Rafa]

(06-15-2024 06:25 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  

(06-10-2024 02:24 PM)Rafa Wrote:  For whatever reason, it's near nonexistent in Europe, every 27s on offer i found on was from the US and they were getting sold fairly quick. Like not so quick that it would be snatched in a Blitzkrieg auction but it also wouldn't be ignored for too long once the price comes down to between 50 and 75 USD. i paid 55 USD. Did you get your for similar price?

Of my seven ones I got the cheapest for 3€, maximum for $67. Best bet on a NIB one for €46.50.
Only two of them from USA.

hey Massimo, it must have been a sweet day when you found a 27s for 3€ : )
i'm curious about the reason behind having 7 pieces of the same calculator. can i be a bit nosy and ask why?

[rprosperi]

(06-15-2024 07:29 PM)Rafa Wrote:  

(06-15-2024 06:25 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Of my seven ones I got the cheapest for 3€, maximum for $67. Best bet on a NIB one for €46.50.
Only two of them from USA.

hey Massimo, it must have been a sweet day when you found a 27s for 3€ : )
i'm curious about the reason behind having 7 pieces of the same calculator. can i be a bit nosy and ask why?

For the first point, it's of no use - I offered him 6€, fully twice what he paid, but he declined...

For the second point, if it has to be explained, the answer(s) probably will not help your understanding...