HP-49G+ indefinite integration

[pivoneer]

I've just upgraded to HP-49G+ from my old TI-89 machine (hello there!) and now am going through the user's guide. I've currently reached the end of "Creating and editing summations, derivatives, and integrals" paragraph and can't find any proper description of entering indefinite integrals in Equation Writer in "pretty" form. I briefly went through other "integral" enterings throughout the document, but all I could find is terminal input way with INTVX() CAS command; however, this method is not so graphically nice and also doesn't allow to change integration variable (I guess only through CAS settings in MODE menu, which I find inconvenient).



For example, to enter indefinite integral on TI-89 in Equation Writer app, you enter basic definite integral and then just erase any of two limits - integral will become indefinite.
Is there any similar way to achieve this on HP-49G+? Or I'm just missing something?

[John Casper]

Congratulations on your new upgrade!
Only definite integrals can be written with the pretty print symbol in the equation writer.

Equation Writer

[pivoneer]

(08-23-2024 06:08 PM)John Casper Wrote:  Congratulations on your new upgrade!
Only definite integrals can be written with the pretty print symbol in the equation writer.

Equation Writer

Oh that's interesting, thank you! Hope I'll find something that might improve this on hpcalc.

[Gene]

When you have the expression INTVX(SIN(X)) highlighted simply press EVAL and it will return -COS(X)

[John Casper]

I would recommend the following books to you
(1)The HP 50g User Guide (must read)
(2)The Advanced Reference Manual (I would recommend reading the RPL part and the ending first)
(3) HP 48gx Insights Bill Wickes

You will get all the files at http://www.hpcalc.org


I would recommend this apps
(1) SolveSys (Best solver for the HP 50g)
(2) PEQUM Apps
(3) Unitman.

You can define custom menus and put them on the keyboard
The Matrices menu on the keyboard can be defined as follows
You can use your most used functions and make it less cluttered

[rprosperi]

(08-24-2024 07:47 PM)John Casper Wrote:  You will get all the files at http://www.hpcalc.org

This is the parent site where the recommend programs can be found, however the manuals listed above the programs can be found directly at this sub-site:

https://literature.hpcalc.org/

And I agree with John, read the books. Although these can be dauntingly large and complex, the 49g+/50g are as well, and you'll never master it just by exploring, as was possible with some earlier machines. I'd say start with the Bill Wickes book, it's a very casual and readable style and easy to wade through fairly quickly.

[pivoneer]

(08-24-2024 07:47 PM)John Casper Wrote:  I would recommend the following books to you
(1)The HP 50g User Guide (must read)
(2)The Advanced Reference Manual (I would recommend reading the RPL part and the ending first)
(3) HP 48gx Insights Bill Wickes

You will get all the files at http://www.hpcalc.org


I would recommend this apps
(1) SolveSys (Best solver for the HP 50g)
(2) PEQUM Apps
(3) Unitman.

You can define custom menus and put them on the keyboard
The Matrices menu on the keyboard can be defined as follows
You can use your most used functions and make it less cluttered

Oh yeah, thank you, I'm already going through User's Guide and have an Advanced User's Manual on the way. As for now I've noticed that HP's Erable CAS is smarter than TI-89's Derive, it provides more compact, more human-like solutions and even has settings and basic step-by-step indication. Although command menus are indeed really cluttered there and it looks like they've never intented to be actually used so I'm definitely going to hpcalc for some programs.

[carey]

(08-25-2024 10:35 PM)pivoneer Wrote:  As for now I've noticed that HP's Erable CAS is smarter than TI-89's Derive, it provides more compact, more human-like solutions and even has settings and basic step-by-step indication.

Don’t get me wrong, Erable CAS is remarkable and beats Derive in some areas, e.g., showing solution steps as you mentioned (and many settings! :) but IMHO, the notion that it is “smarter than TI-89’s Derive” is mistaken and the belief that it provides “more compact, human-like solutions” is actually opposite to the experience that several others have expressed in previous years on the forum.

In fact, one of Erable’s strengths is it leaves to the user choices about how to simplify results. However this can lead to less compact, less human-like initial solutions unless one knows how to correctly apply simplifying operations, while Derive usually makes these decisions (for better or worse) for the user and seems to “understand” math.

Derive (the successor to MuMath) was a mature, well-tested CAS developed at the University of Hawaii well before TI bought it. In many respects Erable in the 49g/50g and Derive in the TI-89 were complementary, i.e., each had different strengths and weaknesses.

[nickapos]

(08-24-2024 07:47 PM)John Casper Wrote:  I would recommend the following books to you
(1)The HP 50g User Guide (must read)
(2)The Advanced Reference Manual (I would recommend reading the RPL part and the ending first)
(3) HP 48gx Insights Bill Wickes

You will get all the files at http://www.hpcalc.org


I would recommend this apps
(1) SolveSys (Best solver for the HP 50g)
(2) PEQUM Apps
(3) Unitman.

You can define custom menus and put them on the keyboard
The Matrices menu on the keyboard can be defined as follows
You can use your most used functions and make it less cluttered

Going through HP 48gx Insights by Bill Wickes
Great book, thanks for the suggestion

[RPNerd]

(08-26-2024 04:47 PM)nickapos Wrote:  Going through HP 48gx Insights by Bill Wickes
Great book, thanks for the suggestion

Speaking of... Was a Part 2 ever published?

[Steve Simpkin]

(08-26-2024 05:51 PM)RPNerd Wrote:  

(08-26-2024 04:47 PM)nickapos Wrote:  Going through HP 48gx Insights by Bill Wickes
Great book, thanks for the suggestion

Speaking of... Was a Part 2 ever published?

No. It was never published.
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-20...#pid179288

Edit: Related post:
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-19...#pid170211

[cdmackay]

(08-26-2024 05:51 PM)RPNerd Wrote:  

(08-26-2024 04:47 PM)nickapos Wrote:  Going through HP 48gx Insights by Bill Wickes
Great book, thanks for the suggestion

Speaking of... Was a Part 2 ever published?

Sadly not: https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-14...#pid123808

[Steve beat me to it ]

[Steve Simpkin]

(08-26-2024 08:36 PM)cdmackay Wrote:  

(08-26-2024 05:51 PM)RPNerd Wrote:  Speaking of... Was a Part 2 ever published?

Sadly not: https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-14...#pid123808

[Steve beat me to it ]

cdmackay,
THAT post by Giuseppe Donnini was the one I was remembering but could not find.
Thank you.

[John Casper]

https://literature.hpcalc.org/items/1572 For HP 48SX

Other good books
(1)MASTERING YOUR HP-48VOLUME 2 : PROGRAMMING AND APPLICATION by J.M Ferrard
(2)HP 48gx Enhancement
(3)Science and Engineering Mathematics with the HP 49 G

[RPNerd]

(08-26-2024 08:29 PM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  No. It was never published.
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-20...#pid179288

Thanks for the info and the background. Pity Bill Wickes never got round to it, it would have surely been a worthwhile read.

[pivoneer]

(08-26-2024 02:04 PM)carey Wrote:  

(08-25-2024 10:35 PM)pivoneer Wrote:  As for now I've noticed that HP's Erable CAS is smarter than TI-89's Derive, it provides more compact, more human-like solutions and even has settings and basic step-by-step indication.

Don’t get me wrong, Erable CAS is remarkable and beats Derive in some areas, e.g., showing solution steps as you mentioned (and many settings! but IMHO, the notion that it is “smarter than TI-89’s Derive” is mistaken and the belief that it provides “more compact, human-like solutions” is actually opposite to the experience that several others have expressed in previous years on the forum.

In fact, one of Erable’s strengths is it leaves to the user choices about how to simplify results. However this can lead to less compact, less human-like initial solutions unless one knows how to correctly apply simplifying operations, while Derive usually makes these decisions (for better or worse) for the user and seems to “understand” math.

Derive (the successor to MuMath) was a mature, well-tested CAS developed at the University of Hawaii well before TI bought it. In many respects Erable in the 49g/50g and Derive in the TI-89 were complementary, i.e., each had different strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, I suppose. There is no perfect CAS and I'm definitely going to test both of these hard out of interest. The best CAS is aways you

[HPCarnace]

You are right. There is no perfect CAS. You can try integrals that can be solved with the Risch algorithm like INTVX(EXP(1/(LN(X)+1))*((2*LN(X)+1)/X))) in CAS software. Sometimes you get results in different presentations or they just don't solve them like on the Ti NSpire CX CAS II, Ti Voyage 200, HP Prime. Sometimes it happens in the opposite direction, some integrals are solved in the TI NSpire CX CAS, but not the others.
   

[carey]

(08-29-2024 03:44 PM)pivoneer Wrote:  Yes, I suppose. There is no perfect CAS and I'm definitely going to test both of these hard out of interest. The best CAS is aways you :D

Just to toss a 3rd calculator CAS into the mix to consider, there's the Casio CG500 (same as CP-400 but without Qwerty keyboard). Despite use of AAA batteries for an underpowered CPU, I find it's CAS (developed by a math PhD and former Tektronix engineer) impressive. There's an iOS emulator app (requires monthly subscription) for the calculator. Especially nice is its handling of Fourier transforms for 2 reasons: (i) the CG500 includes symbolic Fourier transforms (unlike only numeric Fourier transforms - the FFT - for the Prime and TI models); (ii) there's an option to select different Fourier transform conventions, corresponding to math, signal processing, and physics -- all use slightly different coefficients in the definition of the transform.