Correct layout of e^/LN/10^/LOG?

[John Keith]

(10-25-2024 08:49 PM)Geoff Quickfall Wrote:  Being a Fortran user I would use:

LN
LOG
E^X
** not 10^X


:-)

I don't use 10^X very often myself but I think that the key is useful because it saves keystrokes / program steps. 1 0 X<>Y ^ vs SHIFT 10^X.

[Matt Agajanian]

(10-25-2024 11:07 PM)John Keith Wrote:  

(10-25-2024 08:49 PM)Geoff Quickfall Wrote:  Being a Fortran user I would use:

LN
LOG
E^X
** not 10^X


:-)

I don't use 10^X very often myself but I think that the key is useful because it saves keystrokes / program steps. 1 0 X<>Y ^ vs SHIFT 10^X.

And a 10^x key saves a stack level.

[Geoff Quickfall]

Look for the 10^X key and you will see what I mean by “as a user of Fortran I like ** instead of 1o^X”.

;-)

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-25-2024 08:49 PM)Geoff Quickfall Wrote:  Being a Fortran user...

People still program in FORTRAN??? At least it isn't COBOL

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22047769

A1

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-26-2024 03:45 AM)Geoff Quickfall Wrote:  Look for the 10^X key...

From the Sharp EL-1300S Manual p14 (p22 of the PDF).

Quote:**
(number to the power key)
Page 30

• Can be used as 10^x

o 10 ** 4 = 10000

• Can be used as Y^x or X^y

o 3.14 ** 5 = 305.2447762

I don't think that the Japanese burn people at the stake. Swords? Too quick for this level of heresy!

A1

[jdebord]

(10-26-2024 12:38 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  People still program in FORTRAN???

Of course. FORTRAN is constantly evolving:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran

[Geoff Quickfall]

Well, programming in Fortran still would be a requisite on a Fortran machine!

Annoyedone:

Do you have an english version of the manual for the PC-1300S?

Or is that the one I translated:

Translated version

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-26-2024 06:52 PM)Geoff Quickfall Wrote:  Or is that the one I translated...

That one. I found it on some website or other.

A1

[Geoff Quickfall]

I included it on the thumb drive for HHC2024 and also for James who has it at his website. He sent me a PDF of the original Congi script manual.

The reason I asked is that there exists a Sharp produced English version. No one has ever seen one as this was a JDM machine.

Cheers

[Matt Agajanian]

I’m just going to toss this our there. How does everyone here feel about the HP-65 approach: putting the primary trig and exponential functions as the prinary key and have f^-1 key so that inverse trig, x^2, 10^x and e*x are accesed that way (or vice versa)?

[naddy]

(10-26-2024 08:13 PM)Matt Agajanian Wrote:  I’m just going to toss this our there. How does everyone here feel about the HP-65 approach: putting the primary trig and exponential functions as the prinary key and have f^-1 key so that inverse trig, x^2, 10^x and e*x are accesed that way (or vice versa)?

Well, no, you had to access LN with f and e^ with f­⁻¹, etc.

This is basically equivalent to having f LN and g e^ on the same key, etc., which was used in any number of HP calcs that had at least two shift levels, e.g. HP-25, HP-67, HP-34C. It sort of solves the problem whether logarithm or antilogarithm should be primary: neither is.

[Matt Agajanian]

(10-26-2024 08:28 PM)naddy Wrote:  

(10-26-2024 08:13 PM)Matt Agajanian Wrote:  I’m just going to toss this our there. How does everyone here feel about the HP-65 approach: putting the primary trig and exponential functions as the prinary key and have f^-1 key so that inverse trig, x^2, 10^x and e*x are accesed that way (or vice versa)?

Well, no, you had to access LN with f and e^ with f­⁻¹, etc.

This is basically equivalent to having f LN and g e^ on the same key, etc., which was used in any number of HP calcs that had at least two shift levels, e.g. HP-25, HP-67, HP-34C. It sort of solves the problem whether logarithm or antilogarithm should be primary: neither is.

Well, I did say ‘or vice versa.’

[dm319]

I just got a flash-back to all the discussions around key placement on the WP43.

[KeithB]

"You can always type LOG10 or LGT for base 10 calculations. "

Sure, but we are talking about keys here. You could say the same thing about the HP-41 or Prime.

[c3d]

In the upcoming release, DB48X will have user-configurable default keyboard layout (in addition to the good old user mode). So you pick the one you want ;-)

[LinusSch]

To me it seems like I use one base at a time, which one dependent on the task at hand and mostly the same within each subject. Natural for physics and statistical thermodynamics, 10 for most of engineering, 2 for computer engineering. And no matter which one I think I use that pair of functions in roughly equal measure, with a few specific tasks being mostly logarithms and even fewer mostly exponentials.

I think grouping of related functions is very useful and quite important, but I think shifted as the inverse of the primary function of a key is generally a bad way to do this. Primary keys should be the most often used keys, this is keyboard layouting rule number one to me (I think we can all agree both this and logical grouping are important rules, I do not think we can agree on which one is more important and I'm not sure that even has a general answer). I personally would have both square root and square on primary keys before any logarithm or exponential, really. I will very happily put a pair of functions such as e^x and ln as two different shifts on the same key, whose primary function may be entirely unrelated, or - preferably - y^x.

Clearly, YMMV. This is why the most important features of an advanced calculator are user definable keys and menus and options in general. The above is my experience and my opinion, but this here is no mere opinion. This is the gospel of calculator keyboard layouts, and I will preach it until you all join the choir!