challenge

[Don Shepherd]

(06-22-2018 12:38 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  What about numbers like 1360 thirteen hundred sixty ? Or 1664 sixteen hundred and sixty four ?

- Pauli

We don't teach students those pronunciations, although in real-life they are common. We teach 1360 = one thousand, three hundred sixty, and 1664 = one thousand, six hundred sixty-four.

Number pronunciations could be far-flung: 5007 = five double-aught seven, or fifty oh seven.

I doubt it would be possible to construct a program that allowed for all kinds of different possible number pronunciations. Or, it might be possible but not "fun."

[grsbanks]

(06-22-2018 01:25 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  

(06-22-2018 12:38 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  What about numbers like 1360 thirteen hundred sixty ? Or 1664 sixteen hundred and sixty four ?

We don't teach students those pronunciations, although in real-life they are common. We teach 1360 = one thousand, three hundred sixty, and 1664 = one thousand, six hundred sixty-four.

Not where I come from

One thousand three hundred AND sixty, or one thousand six hundred AND sixty-four

[ijabbott]

(06-22-2018 06:59 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  

(06-22-2018 01:25 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  We don't teach students those pronunciations, although in real-life they are common. We teach 1360 = one thousand, three hundred sixty, and 1664 = one thousand, six hundred sixty-four.

Not where I come from

One thousand three hundred AND sixty, or one thousand six hundred AND sixty-four

Me too! Although to be fair, the American English practice of dropping the AND seems more logical. After all, we don't say "one thousand and three hundred and sixty"! Although that may be because there should be a comma in the British English version: "one thousand, three hundred and sixty".

[grsbanks]

(06-22-2018 07:24 AM)ijabbott Wrote:  Me too! Although to be fair, the American English practice of dropping the AND seems more logical. After all, we don't say "one thousand and three hundred and sixty"!

Actually, no. You only put "and" between the penultimate and last items in an enumeration

So, if asked what was in your fridge, you wouldn't answer "milk, butter, lager", you would answer "milk, butter and lager".

Similarly, the number 1360 is 1000, 300 and 60.

Also note the use of the Oxford comma (which I forgot in my previous post -- shame on me!)

[brickviking]

(01-19-2015 09:08 PM)Gilles Wrote:  ...
By the way, my english is bad but 9999 should it not be writen as : n-i-n-e-t-h-o-u-s-a-n-d-n-i-n-e-h-u-n-d-r-e-d-A-N-D-n-i-n-e-t-y-n-i-n-e
? (36 letters with an AND inside)

That varies between dialects of English; some have it and some don't. I'm not entirely sure if you could categorically say "X is correct" for all dialects of English.

(Post 248)

[grsbanks]

(06-22-2018 10:34 AM)brickviking Wrote:  

(01-19-2015 09:08 PM)Gilles Wrote:  By the way, my english is bad but 9999 should it not be writen as : n-i-n-e-t-h-o-u-s-a-n-d-n-i-n-e-h-u-n-d-r-e-d-A-N-D-n-i-n-e-t-y-n-i-n-e
? (36 letters with an AND inside)

That varies between dialects of English; some have it and some don't. I'm not entirely sure if you could categorically say "X is correct" for all dialects of English.

Very true. The way I would say 9999 (and I suspect nearly everyone living in the UK and Ireland would) is "Nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine."

[Don Shepherd]

(06-22-2018 10:40 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  Very true. The way I would say 9999 (and I suspect nearly everyone living in the UK and Ireland would) is "Nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine."

Most people in the United States would probably say that too. But many would omit "the" and that would be acceptable.

As a math teacher of kids who are first learning about operations that include decimal numbers (grades 6 or 7), we teach them to let the word "and" represent the decimal point when they pronounce numbers. So pronunciation of integers will never have the word "and," and pronunciation of decimal numbers will have exactly one "and", pronounced at the decimal point.

so 9,999 is "nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine"
18.7 is "eighteen and seven tenths"
4,566.173 is "four thousand five hundred sixty-six and one hundred seventy-three thousandths"

Most kids catch on to this pretty quickly, and when they later go into the real world and hear people say "six hundred and seventy-five", they still get it.

[Thomas Okken]

(06-22-2018 01:17 PM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  As a math teacher of kids who are first learning about operations that include decimal numbers (grades 6 or 7), we teach them to let the word "and" represent the decimal point when they pronounce numbers. So pronunciation of integers will never have the word "and," and pronunciation of decimal numbers will have exactly one "and", pronounced at the decimal point.

so 9,999 is "nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine"
18.7 is "eighteen and seven tenths"
4,566.173 is "four thousand five hundred sixty-six and one hundred seventy-three thousandths"

Most kids catch on to this pretty quickly, and when they later go into the real world and hear people say "six hundred and seventy-five", they still get it.

But what is the point of teaching kids a convention that doesn't match how people speak in the real world? Does anyone not pronounce 18.7 as "eighteen point seven"?

[burkhard]

(06-22-2018 02:22 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  

(06-22-2018 01:17 PM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  As a math teacher of kids who are first learning about operations that include decimal numbers (grades 6 or 7), we teach them to let the word "and" represent the decimal point when they pronounce numbers. So pronunciation of integers will never have the word "and," and pronunciation of decimal numbers will have exactly one "and", pronounced at the decimal point.

so 9,999 is "nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine"
18.7 is "eighteen and seven tenths"
4,566.173 is "four thousand five hundred sixty-six and one hundred seventy-three thousandths"

Most kids catch on to this pretty quickly, and when they later go into the real world and hear people say "six hundred and seventy-five", they still get it.

But what is the point of teaching kids a convention that doesn't match how people speak in the real world? Does anyone not pronounce 18.7 as "eighteen point seven"?

Hah, hah! Thomas has never been exposed to mess of American government school "Common Core" mathematics wherein different curriculum supplier companies (I can't call them textbook supplier companies, because there generally are no textbooks anymore) compete to come up with propriety non-standard and very arcane ways of expressing and solving mathematics problems.

The whole use of weird terminology & methods seems very odd, until one realizes there are literally *billions* of dollars in contracts to the varied state governments. The companies work hard to come up with their own goofy non-standard ways of doing things so that the "costs" of ever switching to another supplier would be very hard. Not necessarily $ costs, but in confusion for the students.

And yes, everyone I have ever heard speaking English says "eighteen point seven".

And in the U.S. we generally use the Oxford comma. At least the nuns who taught me insisted upon it. :-)

[ijabbott]

(06-22-2018 07:32 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  

(06-22-2018 07:24 AM)ijabbott Wrote:  Me too! Although to be fair, the American English practice of dropping the AND seems more logical. After all, we don't say "one thousand and three hundred and sixty"!

Actually, no. You only put "and" between the penultimate and last items in an enumeration

My edit crossed with your reply!

Quote:So, if asked what was in your fridge, you wouldn't answer "milk, butter, lager", you would answer "milk, butter and lager".

Similarly, the number 1360 is 1000, 300 and 60.

Also note the use of the Oxford comma (which I forgot in my previous post -- shame on me!)

I thought the Oxford comma was putting the comma before the "and" (or other conjunction), like "milk, butter, and lager".

[Don Shepherd]

(06-22-2018 02:22 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  Does anyone not pronounce 18.7 as "eighteen point seven"?

yes

[Don Shepherd]

We are rather getting away from the point of this 3-year-old thread, which was to devise a program for calculating a value. Obviously, the calculated value will differ from my calculated value if you use "AND" , but the fun is in devising the program.

For those who include "AND," what is your answer? It would be interesting to compare it with my answer of 359 or, if you include zero, 360.

[Hlib]

First we set the rules and then proceeded to make the program. Different pronunciations are not the essence of the task and only lead away from the main stream.

[Don Shepherd]

(06-22-2018 10:08 PM)Hlib Wrote:  First we set the rules and then proceeded to make the program. Different pronunciations are not the essence of the task and only lead away from the main stream.

Exactly. The fun of programming is understanding the problem and designing, writing, and testing the program, then optimizing the program to make it shorter, faster, more "elegant," etc.

Whether one includes "AND" is interesting from the standpoint of are there more or less than 359 instances than a version that does not include "AND."

And it is not just me who thinks that "AND" should only represent the decimal position. Consider this site.

This thread is a few years old and I appreciate all those who contributed solutions, BASIC, Python, or RPL.

[ijabbott]

(06-23-2018 12:15 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  And it is not just me who thinks that "AND" should only represent the decimal position. Consider this site.

Well, that usage isn't used at all in British English. According to that site, "666.666666666666" should be pronounced "six hundred sixty six and six hundred sixty six billion, six hundred sixty six million, six hundred sixty six thousand, six hundred sixty six trillionth(s)", which is simply ludicrous!

[Don Shepherd]

(06-23-2018 09:20 AM)ijabbott Wrote:  

(06-23-2018 12:15 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  And it is not just me who thinks that "AND" should only represent the decimal position. Consider this site.

Well, that usage isn't used at all in British English. According to that site, "666.666666666666" should be pronounced "six hundred sixty six and six hundred sixty six billion, six hundred sixty six million, six hundred sixty six thousand, six hundred sixty six trillionth(s)", which is simply ludicrous!

I'm curious, how would British English pronounce this number?

[grsbanks]

(06-23-2018 10:13 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  I'm curious, how would British English pronounce ["666.666666666666"]?

Six hundred and sixty-six point six six six six six six […]

[Don Shepherd]

(06-23-2018 10:22 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  

(06-23-2018 10:13 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  I'm curious, how would British English pronounce ["666.666666666666"]?

Six hundred and sixty-six point six six six six six six […]

OK, thanks.

So you would never, for example, pronounce 4.3 as "four and three tenths"?

I'm going to start a new thread called "how to pronounce numbers" so that others can enter this discussion, which I find fascinating.

[grsbanks]

(06-23-2018 10:42 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  So you would never, for example, pronounce 4.3 as "four and three tenths"?

No. We would only say that if we saw the fraction \(4\frac{3}{10}\)

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(06-23-2018 10:22 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  

(06-23-2018 10:13 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  I'm curious, how would British English pronounce ["666.666666666666"]?

Six hundred and sixty-six point six six six six six six […]

A clear case of devil is in the detail! :)

(06-23-2018 10:48 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  

(06-23-2018 10:42 AM)Don Shepherd Wrote:  So you would never, for example, pronounce 4.3 as "four and three tenths"?

No. We would only say that if we saw the fraction \(4\frac{3}{10}\)

I would translate it to \(\frac{12}{10}\). Shouldn't it be \(4 + \frac{3}{10}\)?