[50G] Question

[Tugdual]

(03-12-2015 10:00 PM)Marcio Wrote:  

(03-12-2015 09:44 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  It is less the location than the number of key strokes and the time you spend searching for a feature. This doesn't actually govern a choice considering that there are only two machines that somehow compare (and soon only one since the 50g's life cycle has apparently reached an end).

After some time playing with it, you'll get more fluent finding features you need and realize what a powerful machine the 50g is. If only the Prime had as many commands and full RPN integration.

I do already realize Marcio but I also realize I was may be not clear. When I said "what a monster" I was referring to it's power and I added that I suspect it could be more powerful than the Prime considering the insane library of functions (and despite slower processor and emulation).

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(03-12-2015 08:28 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Screen is better than the 48g for sure but I'm not impressed, I suspect that it could be the same as the 48g when it is 20 years old.

It's not a question of aging: the 48 screen was the same 20 years ago, low contrast, blue on green.

[Marcio]

(03-12-2015 10:16 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  When I said "what a monster" I was referring to it's power and I added that I suspect it could be more powerful than the Prime considering the insane library of functions (and despite slower processor and emulation).

Oh Yes, the Prime is still a baby compared to the 50g.

The prime is only 2 years old and was almost entirely built from scratch, while the 50g is a 20-year-old mature product. Two bad it will be discontinued very soon. The Prime might end up meeting all the needs of the 50g users as well. Still, the best HP calculators of today.

[rprosperi]

(03-12-2015 08:28 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Received the 50g I ordered today, and I'm discovering it. What a monster. I am under the impression it has more features than the prime. On the other hand it seems totally disorganized I really have a much harder time to find functions than on the 48G. I also see the appearance of these list menu I didn't like on the prime to the detriment of a better use of Fn keys.
Screen is better than the 48g for sure but I'm not impressed, I suspect that it could be the same as the 48g when it is 20 years old. Keyboard is surprisingly better than I expected though it does an ugly sticky noise like scotch tape, and of course this ridiculous tiny ENTER key but I'm not going to reopen this chapter.

Just first impressions...

The 50g has well more than twice as many functions than the 48 so it's hard to pack them all in, such that they're easy to find, but with practice you'll quickly find the ones you use often. As has also been noted in a recent thread, there are MANY key assignments that are not printed on the keyboard. The worst offense of this is that SWAP (one of the most commonly used functions) is assigned to the right-arrow key, which obviously only does this when not in any editor.

Also, you will find the transition to the ENTER key much easier than you think it will be, at least I did. Now when I use a 48, I'm contantly hitting + by mistake. Fingers have excellent muscle memory, if you can just keep your brain out of the discussion.

You'll enjoy exploring the 50g - a truly awesome machine.

[Tugdual]

Starting with the integer library with infinite digits. First time ever I see that. Wow...

[MarkMason]

(03-12-2015 08:28 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Received the 50g I ordered today, and I'm discovering it. What a monster. I am under the impression it has more features than the prime. On the other hand it seems totally disorganized I really have a much harder time to find functions than on the 48G. I also see the appearance of these list menu I didn't like on the prime to the detriment of a better use of Fn keys.
Screen is better than the 48g for sure but I'm not impressed, I suspect that it could be the same as the 48g when it is 20 years old. Keyboard is surprisingly better than I expected though it does an ugly sticky noise like scotch tape, and of course this ridiculous tiny ENTER key but I'm not going to reopen this chapter.

Just first impressions...

Tugdual,

I received my 50g a little over a week ago, so I'm on a similar learning curve. For $78, This is insanely capable.

Have you found the function catalog yet? Right Shift 'SYMB' key (row 4, key 4), orange 'CAT' over the key. Most of the functions are available here in alphabetical order. The Advanced User's Reference Manual lists them with explination and examples in Chapter 3, which is 304 pages by itself.

Function 'Minehunt' in the catalog is my favorite !!!

Some of the functions have a help screen 'Tool' 'Next' 'Help' will get you there.

Mark

[Tugdual]

Thank you all for comments, recommendations and directions. Still in the process of discovering, this one is definitely a big chunk to swallow...
I'm struggling with the Tool meny →BEG and →END. These two commands seem to systematically place the cursor at the beginning of the edition. Just in case that matters, I made the definitive choice to stick on RPN (otherwise I could as well visit Texas!).
The two others ←SKIP and SKIP→ are just searching for spaces... not a big use. Is there a way to move on next '«' or '»' ?
Edit: I finally understood how it works. I totally missed the orange BEGIN and END keys that go along with COPY, CUT, PASTE. Now things start to make sense.

[Han]

(03-14-2015 10:11 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  Thank you all for comments, recommendations and directions. Still in the process of discovering, this one is definitely a big chunk to swallow...
I'm struggling with the Tool meny →BEG and →END. These two commands seem to systematically place the cursor at the beginning of the edition. Just in case that matters, I made the definitive choice to stick on RPN (otherwise I could as well visit Texas!).
The two others ←SKIP and SKIP→ are just searching for spaces... not a big use. Is there a way to move on next '«' or '»' ?

If you install Emacs or Jazz, they each have editors that will find the closing delimeters. The downside is their size if all you need is an editor.

[Tugdual]

Thanks for the tip Han. I have installed Emacs on my 50G. Looks pretty rich, so I haven't yet started to look at it and/or sysRPL.

Another question on the 50G....
Is it possible to activate rational calculation on matrices?
For example during a LU matrix decomposition, starting with integers, I would expect fractions before an optional →NUM. Is it possible? Looks like CAS doesn't apply on matrix calculations despite the unticked _Approx option in CAS settings.

[Gilles]

(03-18-2015 09:31 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Is it possible to activate rational calculation on matrices? For example during a LU matrix decomposition, starting with integers, I would expect fractions before an optional →NUM. Is it possible? Looks like CAS doesn't apply on matrix calculations despite the unticked _Approx option in CAS settings.

The CAS setup applies on matrices in most cases. But there are few commands/functions that returns real values in any cases. LU is one of them. I guess it's because LU uses a numerical algorithm. Perhaps it's possible to rewrite an exact LU command in RPL ?

Simpler but not perfect you can use the XQ command wich can be seen as the contrary of ->NUM

ex :

Code:

[[ 1. 0.5 ]
 [ 0. 0.1 ]]

XQ

returns

[[ 1 1/2 ]
 [ 0 1/10]]

[Tugdual]

I have reimplemented the LU decomposition using Crout method as described on Wikipedia with one limit, the P matrix is not built (nor used) so it will crash in some cases.

Code:

%%HP: T(3)A(R)F(,);
\<< DUPDUP SIZE LIST\-> DROP2 \-> A L N
  \<< 'L' IDN 1 N 1 -
    FOR n n 1 + N
      FOR i 'A' i n 2 \->LIST GET 'A' n DUP 2 \->LIST GET / NEG
      NEXT N n - 1 2 \->LIST \->ARRY n DUP 1 + SWAP 2 \->LIST A IDN SWAP ROT REPL DUP A * 'A' STO L SWAP INV * 'L' STO
    NEXT L A
  \>>
\>>

Usage:
Have the matrix on 1: and call this function.
Returns 2 matrices, 2:L and 1:U

Comments
Returns the exact same result as the Prime CAS in the few samples I tried.
Much slower than native LU() method but acceptable for normal use.
Also the native LU() has a diagonal of 1 on U while common use is to have it on L which is the case with this implementation

[cutterjohn]

(03-09-2015 09:50 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  

(03-09-2015 09:36 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Just found that the 50G was actually an emulated Saturn on ARM.
I really thought it would be ARM native assembly. What's the benefit of emulating Saturn?

The existing code base. It's not the first time in computer history that new hardware was used to emulate older designs just to preserve the investment in software. (Tandem Computers' NonStop architecture comes to my mind here.)
HP was too fscking cheap--- to do for the 50g what they did for the prime is the TRUE answer which answers why they're where they're at now vs. TI selling 30y old garbage at assinine prices...

(03-09-2015 09:36 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  I think the Prime is native ARM now, isn't it?

Yes and that's a two fold experience: We can see tremendous advantages in performance and usability, but on the other hand, the system leaves a lot to improve on.Doesn't even approach 48xx capabilities and reliability...

fixed it for ya...

It's called what happens when you're running a failing business and further compound that by NOT spending ANY money on it(or spending it foolishly)... evidenced by: HP Prime still a WIP at best... HP the home of alpha(beta?) calculators...

[EDIT]
I fully expect this to be flagged and banned again, but I'm off as I've sort of joined the filthy console peasants and have some PS3s to muck around with... of course it helps that I did so after they stopped making these and that they're so common that I could BUY everything useful for a few bucks(including a NIB ps3) also have a vita and n3dsxl to hack...
[/EDIT]

[Han]

(03-18-2015 09:31 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Thanks for the tip Han. I have installed Emacs on my 50G. Looks pretty rich, so I haven't yet started to look at it and/or sysRPL.

Another question on the 50G....
Is it possible to activate rational calculation on matrices?
For example during a LU matrix decomposition, starting with integers, I would expect fractions before an optional →NUM. Is it possible? Looks like CAS doesn't apply on matrix calculations despite the unticked _Approx option in CAS settings.

These commands were carried over from the HP48G/GX codebase, and were not programmed for symbolic matrices.

[Gilles]

(03-22-2015 11:16 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  I have reimplemented the LU decomposition using Crout method as described on Wikipedia with one limit, the P matrix is not built (nor used) so it will crash in some cases.

Another way is to use the SOLVE command. I will post the source if I found some time...

[Tugdual]

(03-23-2015 12:39 PM)Gilles Wrote:  

(03-22-2015 11:16 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  I have reimplemented the LU decomposition using Crout method as described on Wikipedia with one limit, the P matrix is not built (nor used) so it will crash in some cases.

Another way is to use the SOLVE command. I will post the source if I found some time...

You tickle my curiosity. Do you mean something like building and solving a system of equations by developing LU=A?

[Tugdual]

(03-09-2015 09:50 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  

(03-09-2015 09:36 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Just found that the 50G was actually an emulated Saturn on ARM.
I really thought it would be ARM native assembly. What's the benefit of emulating Saturn?

The existing code base. It's not the first time in computer history that new hardware was used to emulate older designs just to preserve the investment in software. (Tandem Computers' NonStop architecture comes to my mind here.)

Wonder if the PC emulator is emulating the ARM that emulates the Saturn or if the PC is a recompilation of the same ARM emulator code. The second would make sense especially when we know that the prime on PC is a simulator, meaning that the ARM code was recompiled.

[Jlouis]

(03-12-2015 10:16 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  

(03-12-2015 08:28 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Screen is better than the 48g for sure but I'm not impressed, I suspect that it could be the same as the 48g when it is 20 years old.

It's not a question of aging: the 48 screen was the same 20 years ago, low contrast, blue on green.

Hi Massimo,

You are forgetting the last 48g+ and 48gx (2001 and 2002) are black LCD, IMHO better than 50g (I have and use all of them), bigger font and no screen above the LCD.

I find myself playing much more with the 48's and even with the 28s than the 50g,

Cheers

[Tim Wessman]

(03-24-2015 06:51 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  Wonder if the PC emulator is emulating the ARM that emulates the Saturn or if the PC is a recompilation of the same ARM emulator code.

Actually, it is a bit more complicated then that. The ROM is Saturn code. There is then an emulator (called the Saturnator, made by JYA I think) which emulates the Saturn processor. This runs the ROM. However, some Saturn op codes could be sped up considerably by replacing them with an ARM call that would do a similar thing. For example, moving memory up/down.

From my understanding, the compilation process for a complete compilation looks roughly like this: a) compile the C code saturnator and underlying OS b) compile the saturn ROM code c) run a perl script that scans the saturn code and replaces OP codes with ARM calls. D) package the whole thing up

For the windows emulator, only step B is done. That can then be used by any proper emulator of the saturn code (I think there are 3 of these - emu48, the saturnator, and then an HP only version of a saturn emulator made by the original emu48 author)

Quote: The second would make sense especially when we know that the prime on PC is a simulator, meaning that the ARM code was recompiled.

Well, I think "simulator" is murky here. It actually is a native application in all locations. For example, you have Chrome on OSX and Chrome on windows. Is one a simulator of the other? The underlying code is essentially identical if you look at the whole. True, there are some specific bits that are different to handle differences in the underlying OS that is running the application, but the core of the application is identical.

The same is true of the prime - it has a core application and then that is targetted to run on different OS platforms. Currently, you can see 3 - windows, the hardware OS, and android.

Where the confusion comes in is that the "emulators" you see on windows or android resemble the hardware visibly with skins. So arguably, calling it a simulator is valid. The underlying reality is more complicated and could be argued either way.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(03-09-2015 06:49 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  On the 48G, one issue I have is the blur screen (I have the blue one).

(03-25-2015 01:26 AM)Jlouis Wrote:  

(03-12-2015 10:16 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  It's not a question of aging: the 48 screen was the same 20 years ago, low contrast, blue on green.

Hi Massimo,

You are forgetting the last 48g+ and 48gx (2001 and 2002) are black LCD,

Not at all, I don't forget (and, coincidentally, I should receive a B&W 48GX just today...)

As you can see from the first post Tugdual has the blue on green variant. ;)

[Jlouis]

(03-25-2015 06:55 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  

(03-09-2015 06:49 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  On the 48G, one issue I have is the blur screen (I have the blue one).

(03-25-2015 01:26 AM)Jlouis Wrote:  Hi Massimo,

You are forgetting the last 48g+ and 48gx (2001 and 2002) are black LCD,

Not at all, I don't forget (and, coincidentally, I should receive a B&W 48GX just today...)

As you can see from the first post Tugdual has the blue on green variant.

Hi Massimo,

Yes, you are right in the context.

Enjoy your black 48gx. Best of both worlds.

Cheers