hidden directory - hp 28s

[Valfisio]

Cheers.
There is a hidden directory in the hp28s (like there is in the hp 48 )?
Best regards,
Valfisio.

[Raymond Del Tondo]

(03-10-2015 09:54 AM)Valfisio Wrote:  Cheers.
There is a hidden directory in the hp28s (like there is in the hp 48 )?
Best regards,
Valfisio.

Actually I don't know for sure, but since the hidden directory of the HP 48 is used for the key assignments and alarms, I'd say no.
AFAIK the HP-42S, which was derived from the HP-28S and HP-17B(II) from the OS side, doesn't have a hidden directory.
Various general RPL mechanics can be found in earlier machines like the 28C/S or the 17B or the 42S, but the HP 48S series were the first to feature (nearly) the full range of object types, covered memory management, and much more.

Best Regards

[Jake Schwartz]

(06-05-2015 10:55 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  Various general RPL mechanics can be found in earlier machines like the 28C/S or the 17B or the 42S, but the HP 48S series were the first to feature (nearly) the full range of object types, covered memory management, and much more.

Best Regards

I'd love to know about any relationship to RPL in the 42S, since it was classic RPN. Yeah, I'm sure it has a Saturn processor, but I don't remember every hearing "RPL" and the 42S in the same sentence.

Jake

[Dave Britten]

(06-07-2015 03:57 AM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  

(06-05-2015 10:55 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  Various general RPL mechanics can be found in earlier machines like the 28C/S or the 17B or the 42S, but the HP 48S series were the first to feature (nearly) the full range of object types, covered memory management, and much more.

Best Regards

I'd love to know about any relationship to RPL in the 42S, since it was classic RPN. Yeah, I'm sure it has a Saturn processor, but I don't remember every hearing "RPL" and the 42S in the same sentence.

Jake

I was wondering about that recently. Seeing as the 18C introduced RPL, at least for internal system programming, and the 17B likely used it as well, what about the 42S? I kind of doubt it to be honest, but you never know.

As for the original question, since the 28C lacks directories entirely (and for that matter, RAM), and gets on fine* without the presence of a hidden directory, I'd assume the 28S doesn't have one.

(*As long as you're not trying to actually program the thing. It's so starved for memory that the command line parser usually doesn't have enough room to work if you've got a stored program of any substance, making it impossible to actually edit the program.)

[Didier Lachieze]

(06-07-2015 03:57 AM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  I'd love to know about any relationship to RPL in the 42S, since it was classic RPN. Yeah, I'm sure it has a Saturn processor, but I don't remember every hearing "RPL" and the 42S in the same sentence.

Jake

See this article for some details about RPL inside the 42s: HP-42S: New Facts .

[Raymond Del Tondo]

(06-07-2015 03:57 AM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  

(06-05-2015 10:55 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  Various general RPL mechanics can be found in earlier machines like the 28C/S or the 17B or the 42S, but the HP 48S series were the first to feature (nearly) the full range of object types, covered memory management, and much more.

Best Regards

I'd love to know about any relationship to RPL in the 42S, since it was classic RPN. Yeah, I'm sure it has a Saturn processor, but I don't remember every hearing "RPL" and the 42S in the same sentence.

Jake

The 42S actually is an RPL machine running a stripped-down version of the HP 48 OS (or a blown version of the 28S OS) , but it features a different UI than that of the 28/48 machines.

Even the internal matrix functions are nearly the same in the 42S and 48.

Many years ago I made a special 42S version of SAD (a Linux tool from Mika Heiskanen and Jan Brittenson for disassembling Saturn code) , which helped decompiling thousands of entries in the 42S.

[Dave Britten]

(06-07-2015 01:47 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 03:57 AM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  I'd love to know about any relationship to RPL in the 42S, since it was classic RPN. Yeah, I'm sure it has a Saturn processor, but I don't remember every hearing "RPL" and the 42S in the same sentence.

Jake

The 42S actually is an RPL machine running a stripped-down version of the HP 48 OS (or a blown version of the 28S OS) , but it features a different UI than that of the 28/48 machines.

Even the internal matrix functions are nearly the same in the 42S and 48.

Many years ago I made a special 42S version of SAD (a Linux tool from Mika Heiskanen and Jan Brittenson for disassembling Saturn code) , which helped decompiling thousands of entries in the 42S.

This all leads to another interesting question: What would it take to port the 42S user environment to the 48?

[Raymond Del Tondo]

(06-07-2015 04:30 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  [..]
This all leads to another interesting question: What would it take to port the 42S user environment to the 48?

That was my main intention back then:-)
It can be made, but as always there are some obstacles to overcome.
The RPN stack and other stuff is stored in reserved locations in system RAM. This may have to be adapted to a LAM or similar. Unfortunately LAM binding also exist in the 42S, therefore I mentioned "similar".
Other things are the display and menu structure, which have to be adapted, which will be much work.

My over-the-thumb-calculation back then came to the result that the final 42S application on the HP 48 may have a similar size as the original ROM in the 42S itself, about 64K, maybe somewhat less.


After all, I took the other route, and reworked the existing HP-41CV emulator by Frank Wales.
Very much work, too, but the main pain was to make the code relocatable. The original 41CV Emulator makes heavy use of absolute jumps, which helps to gain space and speed. There are many jump tables and tricks to squeeze the code into the 32K limit of the ROM card.

My version is about 41K in size, can be stored in any port at any location.
The whole thing now resides in a single library.

Since reworking the direct jumps to relocatable jumps lead to more code to run for jumping to a destination, the wole code ran somewhat slower on a GX than the original code on an SX, so especially the display routines had to be heavily optimized for my version.
Now the stack display in my version is about as fast on a GX as the original version on an SX.

(With "now" I meant the year 2003)

Since my relocatable GX version of the Emu41CV runs stable since year 2003,
maybe it's time restart the initial idea of a 42S application again;-)

However the upcoming new SpeedUI version with support for 32K 48G units has priority, so maybe this fall or winter could be a good starting point for a project like this.
One question is: Are there more than 2 or 3 people who would like to have a 42S simulation on an HP 48?

[rprosperi]

(06-07-2015 09:39 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  One question is: Are there more than 2 or 3 people who would like to have a 42S simulation on an HP 48?

I would! (more to follow I'm sure...)

[Dave Britten]

(06-07-2015 09:53 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 09:39 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  One question is: Are there more than 2 or 3 people who would like to have a 42S simulation on an HP 48?

I would! (more to follow I'm sure...)

Yeah, it would be pretty neat. The keyboard layout would provide a challenge, of course. Use an overlay, or try to map functions to their locations on the 48, sacrificing key code compatibility? Maybe an option to use either approach?

[Mark Hardman]

(06-07-2015 10:04 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 09:53 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  I would! (more to follow I'm sure...)

Yeah, it would be pretty neat. The keyboard layout would provide a challenge, of course. Use an overlay, or try to map functions to their locations on the 48, sacrificing key code compatibility? Maybe an option to use either approach?

If you are willing to part with 100 EUR, HrastProgrammer already has what you're looking for (and much more).

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(06-07-2015 11:49 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 10:04 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Yeah, it would be pretty neat. The keyboard layout would provide a challenge, of course. Use an overlay, or try to map functions to their locations on the 48, sacrificing key code compatibility? Maybe an option to use either approach?

If you are willing to part with 100 EUR, HrastProgrammer already has what you're looking for (and much more).

Yep!
Although I already have Hrast's programs it would be nice, after all these years, to have another emulator around.

[Raymond Del Tondo]

(06-07-2015 11:49 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 10:04 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Yeah, it would be pretty neat. The keyboard layout would provide a challenge, of course. Use an overlay, or try to map functions to their locations on the 48, sacrificing key code compatibility? Maybe an option to use either approach?

If you are willing to part with 100 EUR, HrastProgrammer already has what you're looking for (and much more).

His great emulators are in a class of their own.
However a hardware emulation was not my intention. At least the 41X emulators are applications which always run, there can't be an idle mode (except for NUT CPU sleep mode) since everything, incl. interrupts and timers has to be emulated . The 42X emulation can make use of the HP 48 hardware, so it can use the hardware timers. But it's still 128K + RAM chunks , where 64K are for the ROM image alone.

My intention was/is making a UI simulation, which will be an HP 48 system compliant application, incl. FOCAL execution engine. One goal is to keep the application total size less than 64K.

[rprosperi]

(06-08-2015 09:44 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  My intention was/is making a UI simulation, which will be an HP 48 system compliant application, incl. FOCAL execution engine. One goal is to keep the application total size less than 64K.

Ray - Suggest you post a new Thread, suggesting your proposed 42-in-a-48 emulator, I'm sure you will get much more response and encouragement. I just realized this conversation is deep inside a thread on a relatively obscure and unpopular topic. Not everyone reads everything... though I can't imagine why.

Also, looking forward to the new SpeedUI.