My first newbie WP 34S question

[Michael de Estrada]

I've just had my WP 34S for a day and already have a basic question. I tried to reproduce a simple program from my HP 42S with a 4 character label, but the WP 34S won't let me enter more than 3 characters before it moves to the next program step. Labels in the HP 42S can be up to 7 characters long, so I'm puzzled by this apparent restriction to only 3 characters. Hopefully I'm just missing something here.

[Sylvain Cote]

Michael,
Alpha labels is limited to max 3 characters.
Owner Manual Section Programming-Labels.
(in v3.1 it at page 58)
Sylvain

[Michael de Estrada]

Thanks, Sylvain.

I have v3.0 of the pdf manual, and can't find any reference to label limitations. I have the printed manual on order, which should make figuring everything out much easier.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

Page 78 of the printed v3.2 manual specifies the 3 character limit for Alpha labels. Numeric labels are limited to 2 digits.

[walter b]

(01-09-2014 01:28 AM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  Labels in the HP 42S can be up to 7 characters long, so I'm puzzled by this apparent restriction to only 3 characters. Hopefully I'm just missing something here.

The WP 34S can do a lot more than the HP-42S in some areas. It falls short in other ones. Major shortcomings are caused by:

1. the ... suboptimal display (did I tell you that already?) and
2. the limited RAM space.
   

IIRC, limited RAM made HP-42 data types impossible, causing the alpha and matrix gymnastics as implemented in the WP 34S. Variables and (long global) labels fall in the same pit.

d:-/

[Michael de Estrada]

The limitation on label characters is not a deal breaker IMO and I was just curious to know why it was so much less than the 42S. The 34S does add some really nice 32SII features such as direct keyboard polar<>rectangular conversions and the hyperbolic functions also don't require searching through menus the way the 42S does. And it also includes four dedicated hot keys, which default to other commonly used functions when not in use. So, on balance it is the best overall keystroke programmable RPN scientific calculator ever made.

I have found some curious differences between the number ranges in the 34S .vs. the 30b, such as the maximum real number in the 34S is 1E384, whereas in the 30b it is 1E499. Presumably, this is due to differences in word size ?

[Michael de Estrada]

HELP. I'm stuck in fraction mode. I entered fraction mode by typing 1.3.4, and now I can't get back to decimal mode. On the 32SII I could toggle <left shift> <period>, but I can't find a way to do this on the 34S.

[Mark Hardman]

(01-09-2014 05:08 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  HELP. I'm stuck in fraction mode. I entered fraction mode by typing 1.3.4, and now I can't get back to decimal mode. On the 32SII I could toggle <left shift> <period>, but I can't find a way to do this on the 34S.

Switch back using H.d (f RCL).

Mark Hardman

[Dieter]

(01-09-2014 04:43 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  I have found some curious differences between the number ranges in the 34S .vs. the 30b, such as the maximum real number in the 34S is 1E384, whereas in the 30b it is 1E499. Presumably, this is due to differences in word size ?

Compared to usual HP calculators, the 34s uses a completely different intermal number format. In standard precision mode (SP) the 34s works with 16 digits (as opposed to 10 or 12 in most HP calculators). In this mode, real numbers less than \(10^{385}\) are fine. The lower limit is \(10^{-383}\). Below this value the number of valid digits continuously decreases with every power of ten. For instance, at \(10^{-389}\) six digits are lost so that 10 valid digits remain.

If all this is not sufficient, there is an optional double precision mode (please read the manual). Here, the 34s works with 34 significant digits (however, not all functions return results with that accuracy). In this mode, the working range is \(10^{-6143} \le x \lt 10^{6145}\).

Dieter

[Dieter]

(01-09-2014 05:08 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  ...but I can't find a way to do this on the 34S.

Michael, you have to read the manual to get familiar with the most important 34s basics. Appendix G even features a "troubleshooting guide". Your question (how to return to standard decimal mode) is answered there right at the beginning. ;-)

Dieter

[Michael de Estrada]

(01-09-2014 05:42 PM)Dieter Wrote:  

(01-09-2014 05:08 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  ...but I can't find a way to do this on the 34S.

Michael, you have to read the manual to get familiar with the most important 34s basics. Appendix G even features a "troubleshooting guide". Your question (how to return to standard decimal mode) is answered there right at the beginning. ;-)

Dieter

Dieter, I don't have the current manual to read right now, but expect it to arrive early next week at which point I will most certainly read it thoroughly.

[Jonathan Cameron]

Michael,

You can download the 3.1 user's manual at the WP-34s docs site:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/wp34s/files/doc/

There is also a VERY helpful beginners guide on that site that I encourage you to read first. It is very readable and gives you a great intro.

-Jonathan

[Dieter]

(01-09-2014 05:49 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  Dieter, I don't have the current manual to read right now, but expect it to arrive early next week at which point I will most certainly read it thoroughly.

Until then you should take a look at the PDF manual. You may download it from the 34s project's DOC folder at sourceforge.net

Dieter

[Michael de Estrada]

I just ran Mike Sebastian's calculator forensics test arcsin(arccos(arctan(tan(cos(sin9)))))) and got the very impressive result 9.00000000003, which may be the best yet. And this was obtained using single precision. FWIW, the result for the stock HP 30b is 8.99999864267, which is the same as the HP 32SII.

[Dieter]

(01-09-2014 06:07 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  I just ran Mike Sebastian's calculator forensics test (...) and got the very impressive result 9.00000000003, which may be the best yet.

It should return 9,00000 00000 29361. I assume you know how to display more than 12 digits on a 34s. ;-)

Just to be sure: there is a common misunderstanding regarding the calculator forensics test. A result close to 9 does not mean best accuracy. In fact, there is one single "perfect" result for every number of significant digits, and it usually is different from 9. The forensics test was not intended for accuracy checks. It was supposed to help the user identify the hardware (and firmware) built into various calculators.

A simple program that returns the "perfect" result for most cases can be found at the beginning of a discussion in the old forum that deals with the behaviour of the 34s RSD function (which has been corrected in the meantime). Switch your 34s to double precision (DBLON) and see what you get for 10, 12 and 16 digits.

So if a 12-digit calculator returns exactly 9 or something very close to 9, there must be something wrong: if each and every intermediate result is perfectly rounded to 12 digits, the perfect final result should be 8,99999864267.

Dieter

[Michael de Estrada]

(01-09-2014 05:52 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  Michael,

You can download the 3.1 user's manual at the WP-34s docs site:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/wp34s/files/doc/

There is also a VERY helpful beginners guide on that site that I encourage you to read first. It is very readable and gives you a great intro.

-Jonathan

Bookmarked. Thanks !

[walter b]

(01-09-2014 05:52 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  There is also a VERY helpful beginners guide on that site that I encourage you to read first. It is very readable and gives you a great intro

... but watch it, it's outdated in some aspects. The edition in sourceforge is of July 2012. I haven't seen any newer. Just FYI.

d:-)

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

(01-09-2014 06:38 PM)Dieter Wrote:  

(01-09-2014 06:07 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  I just ran Mike Sebastian's calculator forensics test (...) and got the very impressive result 9.00000000003, which may be the best yet.

It should return 9,00000 00000 29361. I assume you know how to display more than 12 digits on a 34s. ;-)

Just to be sure: there is a common misunderstanding regarding the calculator forensics test. A result close to 9 does not mean best accuracy. In fact, there is one single "perfect" result for every number of significant digits, and it usually is different from 9. The forensics test was not intended for accuracy checks. It was supposed to help the user identify the hardware (and firmware) built into various calculators.

A simple program that returns the "perfect" result for most cases can be found at the beginning of a discussion in the old forum that deals with the behaviour of the 34s RSD function (which has been corrected in the meantime). Switch your 34s to double precision (DBLON) and see what you get for 10, 12 and 16 digits.

So if a 12-digit calculator returns exactly 9 or something very close to 9, there must be something wrong: if each and every intermediate result is perfectly rounded to 12 digits, the perfect final result should be 8,99999864267.

Dieter

Very nice wp34s program! I would have loved to have a wp34s calculator and your program back in 2006 :-)

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...ead=103151

Regards,

Gerson.

[Bit]

Hello,

I recently got my WP 34S. The build quality of the HP 30b is slightly disappointing, but I'm very impressed with the firmware, it seems extremely well thought-out. Many thanks to all who created it. Not wanting to clutter this forum with a new thread, I'll just ask my first two WP 34S related questions here.

Is the USB module that can be built into the WP 34S still available for purchase? If so, where could I get it from?

I've found some bugs in the Y register display code (it's not enabled in the default builds so I guess it received relatively little testing) and am currently working on a patch to improve that. I noticed the following in display.c, in annunciators(), line 516 (equivalent code is compiled in irrespective of whether or not Y register display is enabled):

Code:

/* This is a bit convoluted.  ShowRegister is the real portion being shown.  Normally
 * ShowRegister+1 would contain the complex component, however if the register being
 * examined is on the stack and there is a command line present, the stack will be lifted
 * after we execute so we need to show ShowRegister instead.
 */
getRegister(&y, (ShowRegister >= regX_idx && ShowRegister < regX_idx + stack_size() && get_cmdline()) ? ShowRegister : ShowRegister+1);

I couldn't find a way to reproduce a situation when the stack is lifted after the above piece of code is executed. Maybe the comment refers to an older state of the code and checking the command line is no longer necessary in the current version (at least in the default builds without Y register display). It'd be helpful if someone who's more familiar with the code base could confirm this, or explain what are the conditions under which checking the command line above makes a difference.

[Paul Dale]

That bit of code was one of the very last added. I'd trust the comment, although I don't remember exactly why. I do remember there being a problem with the wrong register being displayed at times.

You are correct, that this code hasn't been tested much.


- Pauli