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Dave Britten · 05-18-2015, 06:41 PM

I finally lost control of myself and purchased a 41 CV. The good news is that it's in great shape - all four module port covers are present, there's no sign of battery corrosion, and the labels and rubber feet show hardly any use. It's a 1983 Singapore that appears to be a fullnut based on the appearance of the display. I've got plenty of digitized manuals available, but I have a few more idiomatic tribal-knowledge questions that don't lend themselves to manual research.

Do I need to worry about any kind of preventive maintenance? I'm mostly thinking about the couple of big 30-year-old electrolytic caps. Should I replace them preemptively, or is it enough of a hassle/risk that I'd be better off waiting until trouble arises?

What are generally considered the must-have accessories, if any? I've got X Functions on its way (should be arriving tomorrow), and Advantage is already on my shopping list. Is it worth getting an X Memory or two, knowing that I'd mostly be using the space for program archives?

Also, does X Memory survive a software-initiated all-clear, e.g. ON+Backspace? I know it obviously won't survive a power loss, or a really bad software crash that stomps all over the memory, but if I start experimenting with synthetic programming, it would be nice to have some near-line storage that's slightly more durable.

Where can I get ahold of pencil-friendly keyboard overlays? Modern aftermarket overlays are fine, as long as the quality is good.

TASP · 05-18-2015, 07:29 PM

I wouldn't worry about the capacitors. HP bought good stuff. There is some risk to taking a machine apart, like the screw posts breaking, if it works it works. I have 6, and 5 are fine, and #6 was bought knowing I am looking for a HP41CL donor body.

XMem evaporates whenever main memory goes poof. If you're going to learn synthetics with a similarly steep learning curve to myself, Wink

it's the price of admission to really wringing the last particle of performance from your machine. If you aren't into synthetics and live in a humid climate, I wouldn't worry about the dreaded Memory Lost too much.

If you're considering a card reader PM me for some suggestions. I know they seem primitive these days, I'm a big fan of them still.

I think my CV from long ago had some internal issue like a broken screw post that would have been an easy fix. At the time, I thought it was static electricity fried, and I gave it to someone at work. Sold him some modules too. Both actions I came to regret.

If I may ask, was the decision between a CV and CX easy ?? (I have 2 Cs, a CV, and 3 CXs now, 2 which have been modified, woot!)

TASP · 05-18-2015, 07:44 PM

* * * * * * * * * * *

I see I neglected the overlay questions. Black ones aren't too good for pencil. Back in the 80s I was really into rub on lettering (do they still make that these days?) but I see 20+ years of storage hasn't been kind to it.

I've seen suggestions in the archives of carefully whittling out the divider between the EEX key and the <-- and using the back side of the overlays. I haven't tried that, but I'd say it's on my (lengthy) to do list.

I'm not sure if my P-Touch goes small enough to make key labels (I'm usually trying to make BIG labels with that machine) if it does, I am probably going to use that.

Good luck finding the tape except on auction sites. Seems like anything I want is considered unusual. White on clear, or black on clear, if it went small enough, would be fine. Trimming with scissors and careful application is taxing my skill set as I approach 60 however. I did put some larger labels on my HPIL modules last night, and I can tell them apart now. White on clear worked fine for that.

Dave Britten · 05-18-2015, 08:08 PM

(05-18-2015 07:29 PM)TASP Wrote: I wouldn't worry about the capacitors. HP bought good stuff. There is some risk to taking a machine apart, like the screw posts breaking, if it works it works. I have 6, and 5 are fine, and #6 was bought knowing I am looking for a HP41CL donor body.

That's kind of what I figured. If the caps have held up this long, they must be pretty good. And since opening HP calculators without damage ranges from "tricky" to "impossible", I'll leave the guts alone unless it becomes necessary.

(05-18-2015 07:29 PM)TASP Wrote: XMem evaporates whenever main memory goes poof. If you're going to learn synthetics with a similarly steep learning curve to myself, it's the price of admission to really wringing the last particle of performance from your machine. If you aren't into synthetics and live in a humid climate, I wouldn't worry about the dreaded Memory Lost too much.

Yeah, I don't usually have issues with memory corruption on HPs, so as long as I don't go wild with synthetics, it ought to be fine. And if I mess with synthetics, it won't be so much for performance, but for doing things you simply can't do otherwise. At least if I do go down that rabbit hole, it wouldn't take all day to rekey 1-2 KB of programs.

(05-18-2015 07:29 PM)TASP Wrote: If I may ask, was the decision between a CV and CX easy ?? (I have 2 Cs, a CV, and 3 CXs now, 2 which have been modified, woot!)

It mostly just came down to what was available, and conditions and price. I figure a CV with X Functions gets you pretty close to a CX, and I can hunt for a Time module if I want that. Not too worried about the text editor. Ruling out the C was pretty easy, though; not nearly enough memory for all the utility programs I want to keep loaded.

(05-18-2015 07:44 PM)TASP Wrote: I see I neglected the overlay questions. Black ones aren't too good for pencil. Back in the 80s I was really into rub on lettering (do they still make that these days?) but I see 20+ years of storage hasn't been kind to it.

I've seen suggestions in the archives of carefully whittling out the divider between the EEX key and the <-- and using the back side of the overlays. I haven't tried that, but I'd say it's on my (lengthy) to do list.

I'm not sure if my P-Touch goes small enough to make key labels (I'm usually trying to make BIG labels with that machine) if it does, I am probably going to use that.

Good luck finding the tape except on auction sites. Seems like anything I want is considered unusual. White on clear, or black on clear, if it went small enough, would be fine. Trimming with scissors and careful application is taxing my skill set as I approach 60 however. I did put some larger labels on my HPIL modules last night, and I can tell them apart now. White on clear worked fine for that.

My P-Touch definitely doesn't have tape that small, though choosing a small font and trimming might be viable. I'll have to see if I can find some kind of thin matte plastic that I can feed through a laser printer. I'm handy enough with an X-Acto knife that I could at least make something functional that doesn't look like a complete travesty, assuming I can find a good template. I have to visit Staples later to look for a case anyway, so I'll see what they've got available in heavier stock.

For now, I can at least do single-letter mnemonics like with the 32S. Prime factors on F, permutations on P, combinations on C, etc.

Dave Frederickson · 05-18-2015, 08:15 PM

(05-18-2015 06:41 PM)Dave Britten Wrote: What are generally considered the must-have accessories, if any?

Diego's Clonix and/or NoV modules.

David Shenk · 05-18-2015, 09:50 PM

I think one of the most appealing things about the 41 series is that there are so many accessories to collect.

Guenter Schink · 05-18-2015, 09:53 PM

(05-18-2015 08:15 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:
(05-18-2015 06:41 PM)Dave Britten Wrote: What are generally considered the must-have accessories, if any?

Diego's Clonix and/or NoV modules.

+ HPIL-Module and Jean Francois' PIL-Box :-)

Günter

Dave Britten · 05-18-2015, 11:05 PM

(05-18-2015 09:50 PM)David Shenk Wrote: I think one of the most appealing things about the 41 series is that there are so many accessories to collect.

I know, it's like friggin' Pokemon! For all the improvements in the 42S, the one-size-fits-all design has nothing on the 41 in that regard.

As for the various super modules, those give you access to any ROM images plus a truckload of X memory, right? What's availability and pricing like on those things?

TASP · 05-19-2015, 01:24 AM

I'd second the above HPIL suggestion. I like printing things too, and it's a nice way of involving others, so if that is appealing, consider a printer.

Dave Britten · 05-19-2015, 01:33 AM

(05-19-2015 01:24 AM)TASP Wrote: I'd second the above HPIL suggestion. I like printing things too, and it's a nice way of involving others, so if that is appealing, consider a printer.

If I go for a printing solution, I'll probably choose the RedEye IR module, since I've got a pair of 82240s already. There are other HP-IL shenanigans I wouldn't mind trying though. Can you use floppy drives with the 41, or is that more a 71 and Portable thing? Could probably do interesting things by sticking an Arduino on the bus too.

Dave Frederickson · 05-19-2015, 02:01 AM

(05-19-2015 01:33 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:
(05-19-2015 01:24 AM)TASP Wrote: I'd second the above HPIL suggestion. I like printing things too, and it's a nice way of involving others, so if that is appealing, consider a printer.

If I go for a printing solution, I'll probably choose the RedEye IR module, since I've got a pair of 82240s already. There are other HP-IL shenanigans I wouldn't mind trying though. Can you use floppy drives with the 41, or is that more a 71 and Portable thing? Could probably do interesting things by sticking an Arduino on the bus too.

I highly recommend a PIL-Box. With it you have access to a virtual printer, mass storage device, and displays. Using the mass storage device you can access the Museum's LIF archives. Smile

Yes, the 41 can use the 9114 disc drive, but why? With the PIL-Box you can have discs up to 16Mb in size! If you want portability then take a look at Tobie's PIL-Box/Arduino SD card mass storage device.

Dave

Dave Britten · 05-19-2015, 08:20 PM

So what's the most economical option for being able to run module ROM images, and keep, say, 2-4 on board at any time?

TASP · 05-19-2015, 08:42 PM

Buying an HP41CL is the most economical way to get ALL the modules.

Wink

(had to give a plug to the mighty CL !!!)

Dave Frederickson · 05-19-2015, 09:50 PM

(05-19-2015 08:20 PM)Dave Britten Wrote: So what's the most economical option for being able to run module ROM images, and keep, say, 2-4 on board at any time?

The last time I obtained pricing from Diego (12/13) the cost of a Clonix-41 was 80Eur and the programmer was 40Eur. Diego may actually be shipping Clonix-41d modules which adds a "dual-diagnostic" feature. Documentation and a Comparison Chart may be found at Clonix41.org.

Dave

Dave Britten · 05-20-2015, 10:25 PM

I appreciate all the suggestions. The super modules and CL all look pretty rad, but are probably above my needs and budget for what's a hobby machine so far. Would rather put funds like that toward a 42S.

I'll probably try to pick up the Advantage module, since the root finder, number bases, logic operations, TVM, and curve fitting would be useful to have, both interactively, and for use in other programs. And maybe the occasional polynomial root or matrix operation, but I don't need those very often.

Then I'll probably keep my eyes out for an X Memory or two, and MAYBE a card reader or IR module, if a good deal ever presents itself.

**rprosperi** · 05-22-2015, 03:23 AM

(05-19-2015 09:50 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:
(05-19-2015 08:20 PM)Dave Britten Wrote: So what's the most economical option for being able to run module ROM images, and keep, say, 2-4 on board at any time?

The last time I obtained pricing from Diego (12/13) the cost of a Clonix-41 was 80Eur and the programmer was 40Eur. Diego may actually be shipping Clonix-41d modules which adds a "dual-diagnostic" feature. Documentation and a Comparison Chart may be found at Clonix41.org.

Dave

Diego's latest model (not yet in the docs or the comparison chart) is the NoV-64d, which can be configured as both a NoV-64 and a Clonix-D (only one at a time of course), so you get the best of both worlds. Fast and easy to program, completely stable, it's awesome.

As others have noted, the 41CL really is the ultimate 41 option for using Application ROMs, but the NoV-64d is definitely cheaper if you don't need all the extras the 41CL provides.

TASP · 05-22-2015, 03:59 AM

(05-20-2015 10:25 PM)Dave Britten Wrote: I appreciate all the suggestions. The super modules and CL all look pretty rad, but are probably above my needs and budget for what's a hobby machine so far. Would rather put funds like that toward a 42S.

I'll probably try to pick up the Advantage module, since the root finder, number bases, logic operations, TVM, and curve fitting would be useful to have, both interactively, and for use in other programs. And maybe the occasional polynomial root or matrix operation, but I don't need those very often.

Then I'll probably keep my eyes out for an X Memory or two, and MAYBE a card reader or IR module, if a good deal ever presents itself.

Not being in a hurry really helps in letting those good deals percolate through the debris.

An XMEM or 2 will need an XFUN also. Just on principle I'd suggest a Rev. C, but a deal on a B or an unknown would be worth watching for. Also, a Rev. G card reader is suggested if you're serious about the XMEM, the VER bug is annoying, but not everyone VERs cards as much as I do.

There are fresh pictures on the site if you get really brave and want to install the XMEMs internally.

Wink

TASP · 05-26-2015, 02:58 AM

P-Touch update:

LOL, counter-intuitively, a P-Touch (at least my PT-1750) will print smaller on a 3/8" (9mm) label as opposed to a 1/4" (6mm) label since the operating system will allow 2 line printing on the 3/8" label, and it turns out smaller.

And as anticipated, you will need to trim the labels apart with scissors or X-acto.

A good thing, considering the tape is expensive, is if you plan ahead and do several at once, you aren't going to use too much tape. I have tried a test label, and it definitely looks like you might want to measure and space out 4 or 5 labels on one key row at a time instead of doing them all separately.

I only have 3/8" tape in black print on white background right now, and it's quite legible, but I'd like to look thru the catalog and see what other color combos are available. Black on clear might be pretty good.

My P-Touch will print mirror image, I don't know if it would improve durability to apply them to the underside of a clear overlay and then put a RTN/CLX/A trimmed buff colored one beneath the clear one, but it might be something to try.

(my press on lettering from the 80s has been disappointing in it's longevity; I don't know if it wore off or flaked off, but it looks sad)

Dave Britten · 05-26-2015, 11:09 AM

(05-22-2015 03:59 AM)TASP Wrote: Not being in a hurry really helps in letting those good deals percolate through the debris.

An XMEM or 2 will need an XFUN also. Just on principle I'd suggest a Rev. C, but a deal on a B or an unknown would be worth watching for. Also, a Rev. G card reader is suggested if you're serious about the XMEM, the VER bug is annoying, but not everyone VERs cards as much as I do.

There are fresh pictures on the site if you get really brave and want to install the XMEMs internally.

I've got an X Functions installed already, so I'm set there. I didn't realize there were different revisions, though. How does one identify them, and what are the differences?

Dieter · 05-26-2015, 11:26 AM

(05-22-2015 03:59 AM)TASP Wrote: An XMEM or 2 will need an XFUN also. Just on principle I'd suggest a Rev. C, but a deal on a B or an unknown would be worth watching for. Also, a Rev. G card reader is suggested if you're serious about the XMEM, the VER bug is annoying, but not everyone VERs cards as much as I do.

In Cat 2 my X-Mem show up as "-EXT FCN 1C". Is this what you call "Rev. C"? What are the differences compared to Rev. B or others, so that C is the preferred version?

And what about the VER bug? My card reader is version 1E, I never had problems with the VER command (yes, I used it quite often). So why do you prefer version G, or in other words: what's wrong with my version 1E?

Dieter