HP-41 and video interface 82163a / 92198a

[Vincent Weber]

Hi,

I am interested to find whether there would be any sense to emulate these video interfaces (through emulated HP-IL) for i41cx+ or go41cx/cxt on iOS and android.

These video interfaces could be used :
1/As a virtual printer, using normal printer operations (PRP,...). This is perfectly emulated with the direct printer emulation (82143a) as the paper is the screen.
2/To build interactive programs, with screen and cursor control, lines longer than 24 character (32 or 80) and inverse video characters.

As far as I understand, 2/, although (painfully) possible in theory through the use of escape sequence or the paname rom, had little been used on the 41. I read about attempt to build interactive games, chess or similar, that failed because screen updates were way too slow (unlike the 71B and 75C that could make use of these features efficiently).

My question is: were there any games or applications for the 41 that could make any practical usage of these features ? If yes, which ones ?

Thanks in advance and regards.

[TASP]

LOL, I can't find it, but I had a clock program for my 41 that displayed a large 12:00 format display on a TV screen. It was handy. I'd think a stopwatch feature would find use too, just so VERY, VERY many things on the list these days . . . .

(the stopwatch on the 41 would be accurate, of course, might need too explain to viewers of TV there would be an update lag)

[Vincent Weber]

So, shall I conclude that nothing was done save for a big clock and stopwatch ?

[Sylvain Cote]

(05-19-2015 11:00 AM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  So, shall I conclude that nothing was done save for a big clock and stopwatch ?

I saw/used these interfaces used for ...

a) Display for HP-75 with Visicalc module
b) Display for a full text editor with 71/75 (VI style)
c) Virtual printer for 41/71/75
d) Status display for several industrial usage like: custom programmed metering station using 3421A/3468A/3468B, etc

Sylvain

[Vincent Weber]

Thanks Sylvain.
That tends to confirm what I thought: sophisticated screen interfaces with cursor and screen control were used on the 75/71 but not on the 41. Usage on the 41 was limited to virtual printer, and displaying status from lab equipment which can't be emulated, so emulating the HP-IL on iOS or android just to get the video interface would be useless for the 41.
Or am I wrong ?

[Gilles]

Hi, the HP82163 was reviewed by Olivier Arbey in the french revue "L'Ordinateur de Poche n°10" in 1983. A screen shot show an Othello/Reversi game

You can read the full article (in french) at Le site du HP41C





extract (sorry for the bad translate) :

Quote:(...)
The char 27 (ec : like escape) followed by other chars allows to execute specific orders like "move the cursor", '"scroll the screen" etc... For exemple 27 ACCHR 69 ACCHR clears the screen memory : the function ACCHR displays the char which is in the X register , or if the char is a special one execute the associated fonction .

(...)

The guide seems 'light' (22 pages) but in fact most of the fonctions are describe in HP IL loop guide.(...)

[Vincent Weber]

Tranks a lot, very informative !
Do you know about this othello program ? Did it make use of cursor control to redraw only the updated part, or if it was reporting everything like a printer ?
Also it talks about being able to scroll up and down form a virtual window of 31 lines compared to the screen 16 lines. Any idea how this was done on a 41 ? Were the bst/sst keys used for that ?

[Gilles]

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Tranks a lot, very informative !
Do you know about this othello program ? Did it make use of cursor control to redraw only the updated part, or if it was reporting everything like a printer ?
Also it talks about being able to scroll up and down form a virtual window of 31 lines compared to the screen 16 lines. Any idea how this was done on a 41 ? Were the bst/sst keys used for that ?

There is no source in the article.

But you can find information in the 82163 owner's manual

There are ESC sequences to move the cursor in the 4 directions and to move cursor to a display address (row column) ( 27 37 column row ). So it seems easy to rewrite only a part of the screen with the ACCHR command. You can also "roll up" (27 83) "roll down" (27 84) the screen etc...

[Vincent Weber]

Thanks a lot. If I need to send an escape sequence to get the screen to roll up or down, this kind of defeats the purpose of convenience ihmo. Maybe they should have been arrows buttons on the video interface itself...

Anything else ? Nobody has written a program to take advantage of the interface, save for Othello and a clock ?

[TASP]

The utility of listing programs is evident after one covers a table top with 80' of 82162 paper.



Now that I have an HP3468, a 'giant' display might be something I'd consider too.

Back in the 80s, I made a 50 year calendar VHS tape for an aunt and uncle's anniversary party present. Hopefully they were never so bored with their marriage they played the tape in it's entirety.

Anyone connecting the video interface I'd advise to use an LCD monitor or TV, a plasma TV would be prey to burn in issues, (something I've managed to do to my big Panny with 4:3 content).

[Dave Frederickson]

(05-19-2015 05:20 PM)TASP Wrote:  Anyone connecting the video interface I'd advise to use an LCD monitor or TV, a plasma TV would be prey to burn in issues, (something I've managed to do to my big Panny with 4:3 content).

That's what I tried, unsuccessfully. My LCD monitor exhibited jitter which magically disappeared when the interface was connected to an analog monitor.

Dave

[TASP]

LOL,

it occurs to me the 'gist' of my clunky banner program could be modified to generate characters for display on the 82163

(and I'm not taking credit for the basic banner program, but I don't recall where I pinched it from)

[bernouilli92]

Hello,
I'm looking for the service manual for the 82163. Any hint where I could find a copy?
Couldn't find it on the hpmuseum' DVDs.

[TASP]

Check post 11. Dave may or may not not have the manual, but he has replaced an IC in one.

I'm impressed!

[Dave Frederickson]

(05-19-2015 11:11 PM)TASP Wrote:  Check post 11. Dave may or may not not have the manual, but he has replaced an IC in one.

Sorry, I don't have the manual. My 82163A was exhibiting jitter. In an attempt to fix the problem I replaced the 1LF4-0001 video chip which I obtained from Sphere Research. Thanks to Marcus it was determined that the monitor was the cause of the jitter. Consequently I have two video chips, one of which is in mint condition as it was socketed, not soldered in place, and is available for sale or trade.

Dave

[Sylvain Cote]

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Do you know about this othello program ?

No, but you could start from Gene version of Othello/Reversi and add the video escape sequences to make it a full screen version.

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Did it make use of cursor control to redraw only the updated part

I am sure it did

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Any idea how this was done on a 41 ?

Build escape sequences in alpha then send it (OUTA) to the selected video interface.
Everything must be done manually, it's very tedious but it works.

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Were the bst/sst keys used for that ?

Nop!

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Also it talks about being able to scroll up and down form a virtual window of 31 lines compared to the screen 16 lines.

You could look at some video samples that I have made for Christoph when he was implementing his 82163A and 92198 video interface simulators.
The tests were made using Christoph Emu71 connected to a PIL-Box from Jean-François with the real video interfaces.
Those tests could had been made easily with a HP-41CX+HPIL (or a HP-41CV+XFM+HPIL) instead.

(05-19-2015 05:03 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Maybe they should have been arrows buttons on the video interface itself...

You can create small routines that does it and then assign the labels to the desired keys.

Best regards,

Sylvain

edit: typos

[bshoring]

(05-19-2015 01:01 PM)Gilles Wrote:  Hi, the HP82163 was reviewed by Olivier Arbey in the french revue "L'Ordinateur de Poche n°10" in 1983. A screen shot show an Othello/Reversi game

You can read the full article (in french) at Le site du HP41C





extract (sorry for the bad translate) :

Quote:(...)
The char 27 (ec : like escape) followed by other chars allows to execute specific orders like "move the cursor", '"scroll the screen" etc... For exemple 27 ACCHR 69 ACCHR clears the screen memory : the function ACCHR displays the char which is in the X register , or if the char is a special one execute the associated fonction .

(...)

The guide seems 'light' (22 pages) but in fact most of the fonctions are describe in HP IL loop guide.(...)

I remember having one of these. I liked having the whole stack displayed all the time. It seems to me it also worked with my 71 B.

Bob

[TASP]

Hmmm.

Be kinda neat to display status, alpha, flags, stack, etc. all at once. Use the DEVEL Rom to speed up how it works (there's a routine, IIRC, somewhere in an old PPCJ) and now that I think about, I think there is a program somewhere that does that . . .

[Garth Wilson]

(05-20-2015 12:50 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Any idea how this was done on a 41 ?

Build escape sequences in alpha then send it (OUTA) to the selected video interface.
Everything must be done manually, it's very tedious but it works.

I don't know anything about Othello, but:

• Escape sequences go much faster and take less program memory using synthetic programming, where the ESC character is in a string as if keyed in like "normal" characters. I used this frequently with the Thinkjet printer.
• There's also ACA (accumulate ALPHA) which lets you keep sending more ALPHA to piece together a line that can be much longer than ALPHA's 24-character length. Since a CR is not sent each time, the line can be al long as you want. ACX (accumulate X) works similarly, accumulating the number in the X register in the current display mode. When you're done building the line and ready for a CR, use PRBUF.
• There's also ACCHR (accumulate character) which lets you send a single character whose ASCII value is in X, without affecting or using ALPHA.
• SKPCHR (skip characters) is kind of like a tab, adding X number of spaces to the line being built in the device's buffer, again without using APLHA.
  

The XIO and probably other modules too offer additional options. I have the HP92198 80-column video interface, but used it more with the HP-71, not so much the 41. When my 41cx was used as the controller connected to a rack of lab test equipment through the HP82169A HPIL-to-IEEE488 interface to test the first $2M of a product in the mid- to late-1980's though, test results were printed on the Thinkjet, using the entire width of the paper. Synthetic programming was used to streamline escape sequences.

[J-F Garnier]

(05-20-2015 12:50 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  

(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  Any idea how this was done on a 41 ?

Build escape sequences in alpha then send it (OUTA) to the selected video interface.
Everything must be done manually, it's very tedious but it works.

HP-41C examples from Sylvain and myself here.

J-F