Now I have a voice in my head saying "you were sooo stupid to buy this HP calculator"

[Sukiari]

(07-31-2015 02:17 PM)BartDB Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 06:04 PM)Sukiari Wrote:  In the UK there is a fitness for purpose law that says a defective consumer product may be returned for a full refund.
[...]

I know, but now it's out of warranty so I'll have to convince HP that the product was never fit for purpose (and the reason I did not return it earlier was the implied promise of HP about updates to the firmware).

Actually I think you can make your claim to the UK's consumer agency and they will help you. I do not believe you have to contact HP at all except to claim your refund.

I am not a Brit but years ago I talked at length with one who went through a similar process with a piece of MS software.

[Sukiari]

(08-01-2015 07:55 AM)debrouxl Wrote:  Perhaps the management, but clearly, a significant proportion of (potential) users: color has been the norm for new calculator models (new designs, more precisely) since before the 39gII hit the market.

All of the following calculator models feature a color screen:
* Casio Prizm / fx-CG10/20 (late 2010);
* Nspire CX (spring of 2011) and the degraded, cheaper Nspire CM-C series aimed at China;
* 84+CSE (spring of 2013), whose hardware is inferior to that of the 39gII;
* fx-CP400 (spring of 2013), the color screen has touch functionality;
* Prime (late summer of 2013), color touch screen as well;
* 83PCE / 84+CE (spring of 2015).

Outliers newer than 2010 featuring a monochrome screen include:
* the '2012 39gII, which is new hardware;
* the '2015 82A aimed at the French market. That's only a slight modification of the old monochrome 84+ technology. Technically an improvement over 83-class 76.fr / 82 Stats(.fr) and 83+-class 82+. Yes, TI calculator model names are confusing.
* the '2015 Graph 25-E and 35-E models aimed at the French market. Again, those are slight modifications of old models.

A color screen, as well as a touch screen, seem like useless wastes of money designed to fill out a list of bullet-points on the back of the calculator box, rather than something useful that will help you out in solving math problems.

All the mathematicians I know, quite a few actually, scorn such frippery. It's for little kids, but it will never be as cool, fun, fast, or have the storage or memory or CPU speed as even a really old iPhone.

HP needs to make a calculator for professionals again, instead of another hare-brained attempt at a student learning machine.

I do sympathize with their executives and their attempt to capture some of the TI (in the US and Canada) and Casio (everywhere else) market share in education, but that game is totally stacked against them. They'd have to literally purchase Kaplan and Pearson, and rewrite the instructions in the textbooks that are designed specifically to instruct TI users how to input the problems keystroke by keystroke.

If you think I'm kidding crack a math book. The teachers won't use HP because the material is designed for TI here in the USA.

[debrouxl]

Indeed, most real mathematicians scorn color screen and touch screen. However, in today's marketplace, real mathematicians are a minority. What makes the bulk of the sales figures, in terms of numbers, are students (as well as a number of their teachers) - and to this audience, nowadays, backlit color screens and visual features matter... A number of parents genuinely believe that interactive teaching concepts, based on newfangled modern technology based on color calculators, will help their kids succeed.

IMO, the fact that the 39gII, which was a brand-new design (and as such, higher risk than e.g. the 84+CSE, 82A, Graph 25/35-E), doesn't have a color screen, doesn't help HP in an uphill battle against TI's penetration in the education marketplace (sales figures, plus teacher training, books, etc., as you mention). All the more its software is not otherwise flawless.

[eried]

Now it would be perfect time to HP to release some of the dev tools for these discontinued calculators

[Marcio]

(08-01-2015 05:47 PM)Sukiari Wrote:  HP needs to make a calculator for professionals again, instead of another hare-brained attempt at a student learning machine.

There is no longer a calculator market for the professional engineer. Today's scientific calculator industry is focused solely on the student. TI and Casio are dominant and HP does not even seem to be trying very hard to catch up (for a bunch of reasons, limited resources, bad decisions etc.).

[Sukiari]

(08-02-2015 02:17 AM)Marcio Wrote:  

(08-01-2015 05:47 PM)Sukiari Wrote:  HP needs to make a calculator for professionals again, instead of another hare-brained attempt at a student learning machine.

There is no longer a calculator market for the professional engineer. Today's scientific calculator industry is focused solely on the student. TI and Casio are dominant and HP does not even seem to be trying very hard to catch up (for a bunch of reasons, limited resources, bad decisions etc.).

There certainly are many professionals who need a calculator. Casio is now making a weatherproof unit with backlit keys and a backlit screen. Clearly they thought it would be useful to make a new machine like this.

There are in fact many many people who still use calculators. What I see is that HP looked at the education market as the largest and concentrated on that.

It may be that there is a smaller market than in the past, but it is there. Whether it makes sense for HP to go after these markets is up to the executives.

We can all hope that the HP's calculator division is spun off into its own entity like Agilent was.

[Derek W]

(08-01-2015 05:44 PM)Sukiari Wrote:  [Actually I think you can make your claim to the UK's consumer agency and they will help you. I do not believe you have to contact HP at all except to claim your refund.

Generally UK consumer legislation gives the buyer redress against the retailer (and it is then up to them to claim their loss back from the manufacturer). Since the OP apparently bought the calculator from China, the retailer may not be covered by UK law, and/or may choose to disregard it.

Local authority Trading Standards departments (who enforce the legislation) have been much cut back, are short of staff, and are unlikely to comprehend a 'not fit for purpose' argument based on software bugs, particularly if they are in uncommon functions. Unless the calculator won't turn on, or gets incorrect answers to simple arithmetic, I wouldn't expect much help.

[BartDB]

(08-04-2015 03:49 PM)Derek W Wrote:  Generally UK consumer legislation gives the buyer redress against the retailer (and it is then up to them to claim their loss back from the manufacturer).

I called the UK HP support and they indeed did tell me to contact the retailer (who is UK based). I sent them an email and I'm awaiting a response.

(08-04-2015 03:49 PM)Derek W Wrote:  Local authority Trading Standards departments (who enforce the legislation) have been much cut back, are short of staff, and are unlikely to comprehend a 'not fit for purpose' argument based on software bugs, particularly if they are in uncommon functions. Unless the calculator won't turn on, or gets incorrect answers to simple arithmetic, I wouldn't expect much help.

This is a reason why I was not looking forward to the process. However, I think LN(0.01+0.01*i) giving a wrong answer is an error in basic functionality.

(08-01-2015 05:44 PM)Sukiari Wrote:  [Actually I think you can make your claim to the UK's consumer agency and they will help you. I do not believe you have to contact HP at all except to claim your refund.

Usually you have to show that you tried to solve the problem through the suppliers complaint procedures.

[BartDB]

(08-01-2015 09:57 AM)Gerald H Wrote:  Is "consumer" even more generic than "customer"?

In Bart's case I'd prefer "dupe" to "consumer".