WP-32S in 2016?

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

Happy New Year y'all !

I think there is a marketing hole between the WP-34S and the WP-31S. Namely, a less cluttered WP-34S, offering only two shift keys, and basic programming functions.

Basic concept:

RPN Scientific Programmable borrowing from the WP-34S and WP-31S (mostly just UNDO).

2 Shift keys (Blue and Gold)

Programmable


I think this may be too late to start (biggest hurdle is lack of new 30B/20B units). Thoughts/interest? Investment of time may be (relatively) small due to experience and maturity of the 34S/31S codebase.

<ducks>

[Paul Dale]

The UNDO feature of the 31S uses a lot of RAM. Storing a reasonable number of program steps and having a decent number of registers would preclude UNDO.

Otherwise, the project is would be feasible. Removing features is easy enough. A new keyboard layout isn't difficult to implement but is a lot more involved to design properly.

The 31S took more time than moist would expect to develop.


- Pauli

[Csaba Tizedes]

(01-01-2016 03:14 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The UNDO feature of the 31S uses a lot of RAM. Storing a reasonable number of program steps and having a decent number of registers would preclude UNDO.

I'm not an electric guy, but I guess in 2016 the RAM is not a big problem...

The real competitive calculator today like a HP48GX without graphics features with size and keyboard of HP32SII (or maybe 15C), huge non-volatile RAM, fast CPU and big mAh rechargeable battery. Full drop/water/dust-proof design with backlight LCD. USB and BT compatible and upgradable with SD cards (for automatic backup feature).

Very strong SOLVE (at least 17BII) + some additional math features (DiffEq solver, more statistical function (just look TI calcs!))


Csaba

[walter b]

(01-01-2016 03:14 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The UNDO feature of the 31S uses a lot of RAM. Storing a reasonable number of program steps and having a decent number of registers would preclude UNDO.

If we'd limit UNDO to restoring the stack (and drop restoring the other registers) it should be less RAM-consuming, isn't it?

Layout-wise, I'm a bit reluctant designing something new for the HP-30b. If, OTOH, the DMxxL platform (or something close to it) would qualify, it would be another story. Michael?

d:-?

[walter b]

Hmmh, sounds like the spec of a 43S+. Looking to the community's ability to provide the electronics of a 43S, however, I've some doubts. Anyway, what for do you want BT (when you've got USB and SD)? And a backlight LCD without backlight function labels? What statistical stuff do you miss? I just want to understand ...

A function set of an HP-48GX crammed on the surface of a Pioneer seems a bit unrealistic. You'll need softkeys at least, meaning a larger LCD than the Pioneers had. Everything else is "only SW" (as a late boss of mine used to say).

d:-?

[Csaba Tizedes]

what for do you want BT (when you've got USB and SD)?
Communication between units and share your data/equation/program or full backup to your phone/tablet.

backlight LCD without backlight function labels?
Backlight for keys also required and for the plate of keyboard (to see the 2nd functions)

What statistical stuff do you miss?
For example I am an engineer and I have a model of a process (a diffeq). I want to make the solution with my calc and after than I want to fit the solution into my measured data.
If I have an equation of this model I can extract additional informations about my process (slope at any points (how the process is fast), integration of the curve (how many material/power consumption on this interval), etc...).

Two simple examples:
a.) try to fit your HP48nn calc a linear function which is crosses Y-axis at Y=1 or
b.) fit the quadratic function which have dY/dX=-1 slope at X=0

these additional features everyday requirements during engineering problem solving.



I just want to understand...
I hope you're not an idea-grabber. You know that, I have lots of idea but I have no possibility to make them in reality. How many you want to pay for me these ideas?!

A function set of an HP-48GX crammed on the surface of a Pioneer seems a bit unrealistic.
No need. Use Categorized Catalog (Real/Vector/Matrix/DiffEq/Solver functions) and Customized one also.

You'll need softkeys at least, meaning a larger LCD than the Pioneers had.
Hmm, maybe. It needs to decide which one is better (softkeys & menu or one line only)


Csaba

[rprosperi]

(01-01-2016 02:19 PM)walter b Wrote:  

(01-01-2016 03:14 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The UNDO feature of the 31S uses a lot of RAM. Storing a reasonable number of program steps and having a decent number of registers would preclude UNDO.

If we'd limit UNDO to restoring the stack (and drop restoring the other registers) it should be less RAM-consuming, isn't it?

Layout-wise, I'm a bit reluctant designing something new for the HP-30b. If, OTOH, the DMxxL platform (or something close to it) would qualify, it would be another story. Michael?

d:-?

I agree, I think there is demand for a DMxxL-based Wp-3xS machine with a set of software features between the 31S and 34S. The reduced feature set can fit the more restrictive screen layout with a single line, but there is still lots of functionality that can work this way.

I also agree UNDO need only restore the stack; the cost of also doing the registers is better spent on program steps, etc.

I, for one, would like to be able to use the WP-3xS software on a machine where the keyboard actually works without having to look at every single keystroke. Also, being able to easily up/download programs via USB would be a welcome enhancement; direct exchange with an emulator would be ideal; this program exchange could be a head start on this aspect of the WP-43S as well.

[walter b]

(01-01-2016 03:44 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  I agree, I think there is demand for a DMxxL-based Wp-3xS machine with a set of software features between the 31S and 34S. The reduced feature set can fit the more restrictive screen layout with a single line, ...

What 'restrictive screen layout' are you talking about?? Please see here about the screen (pictured here in different shades of grey - I admit I was too lazy to write something in the top space). As mentioned earlier, the SwissMicros' screen offers twice the space up left the crippled dot matrix of the HP-30b features.

One might even think of another calculator design featuring up to four softkeys - just revert the screen layout as shown and put the numeric line on top. This would replace the (redundant) keytops under A, B, C, and D by four ^ symbols and eventually leave the WP/DM 34S paradigm towards something new - half way to the 43S. Just food for further thoughts.

d:-?

[walter b]

what for do you want BT (when you've got USB and SD)?
Communication between units and share your data/equation/program or full backup to your phone/tablet.
Sounds like belt and braces to me. And BT eats batteries.

backlight LCD without backlight function labels?
Backlight for keys also required and for the plate of keyboard (to see the 2nd functions)
Now we've lift-off, haven't we? Personally, I calculate at daylight. YMMV.

What statistical stuff do you miss?
For example I am an engineer and I have a model of a process (a diffeq). I want to make the solution with my calc and after than I want to fit the solution into my measured data.
If I have an equation of this model I can extract additional informations about my process (slope at any points (how the process is fast), integration of the curve (how many material/power consumption on this interval), etc...).

Two simple examples:
a.) try to fit your HP48nn calc a linear function which is crosses Y-axis at Y=1 or
b.) fit the quadratic function which have dY/dX=-1 slope at X=0

these additional features everyday requirements during engineering problem solving.

You did want a non-graphing calc. I do not recommend doing advanced curve fitting without some visual feedback. You may look at the numeric residuals though I'd prefer looking at the graph as long as possible. There may be situations where the numeric results tell you more about the goodness of fit but I'd think such applications are beyond the realm of a pocket calculator's micro screen. Again, YMMV.

I just want to understand...
I hope you're not an idea-grabber. You know that, I have lots of idea but I have no possibility to make them in reality. How many you want to pay for me these ideas?!
Csaba, I feed this forum with ideas (even drawn ones) for quite some years now and didn't get a monetary equivalent for that. In fact, all of us who post here do it for free. (The many folks who just browse and read these fora are much more dangerous for you and me, they are the exploiters.) I'm afraid you will have to share our (non-) pay or fall silent.

A function set of an HP-48GX crammed on the surface of a Pioneer seems a bit unrealistic.
No need. Use Categorized Catalog (Real/Vector/Matrix/DiffEq/Solver functions) and Customized one also.
That exceeds my understanding. Please elaborate if you want to.

You'll need softkeys at least, meaning a larger LCD than the Pioneers had.
Hmm, maybe. It needs to decide which one is better (softkeys & menu or one line only)
As above.

d:-?

[rprosperi]

(01-01-2016 05:08 PM)walter b Wrote:  What 'restrictive screen layout' are you talking about?? Please see here about the screen (pictured here in different shades of grey - I admit I was too lazy to write something in the top space). As mentioned earlier, the SwissMicros' screen offers twice the space up left the crippled dot matrix of the HP-30b features.

One might even think of another calculator design featuring up to four softkeys - just revert the screen layout as shown and put the numeric line on top. This would replace the (redundant) keytops under A, B, C, and D by four ^ symbols and eventually leave the WP/DM 34S paradigm towards something new - half way to the 43S. Just food for further thoughts.

d:-?

I did not notice the greyed areas in the LCD display of your landscape mockup layout; I suspect most folks did not. Maybe revise the image with some content in them to make the point clear? I guess these correspond with the 3 display "areas" of the WP-34S display? I also somehow missed that the DMxxL LCD screen had a larger addressable area than in the WP-34S; even more good news.

I also like your additional food for thought - many of us are hungry...

The DMxxL platform may well be the ideal way to further development of the WP-43S, while waiting for the ultimate hardware. I agree with several other comments in various places that since it will take much time to get that development going, even if target h/w was available, there is merit to get started sooner.

Hopefully Michael can give us some indication of his interest in allowing & supporting such an initiative.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(01-01-2016 05:52 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Hopefully Michael can give us some indication of his interest in allowing & supporting such an initiative.

Hopefully Michael could even consider switching to a portrait calculator. :)

[Csaba Tizedes]

what for do you want BT (when you've got USB and SD)?
Communication between units and share your data/equation/program or full backup to your phone/tablet.
Sounds like belt and braces to me. And BT eats batteries.
I guess the WiFi (and GPS) eats the batts, that's why I don't suggested these features also.

Why do you need to stay BT ON when you don't want to use it?
Possibility to use a function (because it is available) is more than nothing.
If you have no belt AND/OR braces your pants drops off.


backlight LCD without backlight function labels?
Backlight for keys also required and for the plate of keyboard (to see the 2nd functions)
Now we've lift-off, haven't we? Personally, I calculate at daylight. YMMV.
Sometimes the light conditions not really comfortable under the ESP in a power plant during commissioning.

What is the problem with it? Nokia 6210 phone runs two-three weeks with one charging and it have a radio inside and this was 15 years ago.
Do not say that a pocket calculator can't to run with one charge to months... Why do not use one light sensor and customizable setpoint for switch ON backlight + long press ON button for switch ON BL immediately?


What statistical stuff do you miss?
For example I am an engineer and I have a model of a process (a diffeq). I want to make the solution with my calc and after than I want to fit the solution into my measured data.
If I have an equation of this model I can extract additional informations about my process (slope at any points (how the process is fast), integration of the curve (how many material/power consumption on this interval), etc...).

Two simple examples:
a.) try to fit your HP48nn calc a linear function which is crosses Y-axis at Y=1 or
b.) fit the quadratic function which have dY/dX=-1 slope at X=0

these additional features everyday requirements during engineering problem solving.

You did want a non-graphing calc. I do not recommend doing advanced curve fitting without some visual feedback. You may look at the numeric residuals though I'd prefer looking at the graph as long as possible. There may be situations where the numeric results tell you more about the goodness of fit but I'd think such applications are beyond the realm of a pocket calculator's micro screen. Again, YMMV.

Sure, typically I want to fit Y=F+(I-F)×EXP(K×X) shape functions to my measured data. I want to calculate F(inal) and I(nitial) values and K. In this case very helpful if you can to see the result graphically.

Or other example: if you measures characteristics curves (eg. for a pump), you must to check the points distribution on a measuring range. In this case recommend to draw a "control-diagram" to checking points how equidistant the distribution.

But: during this job to make plots on a tiny LCD really time-wasting. Far better if you use paper and pencil and the calculator helps to make conversion between measured data and chart values.

If I sitting in the office I don't want to use this function also: I like better Excel or Maple.


Csaba

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(01-01-2016 03:14 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The UNDO feature of the 31S uses a lot of RAM. Storing a reasonable number of program steps and having a decent number of registers would preclude UNDO.

Good point.

(01-01-2016 02:19 PM)walter b Wrote:  If we'd limit UNDO to restoring the stack (and drop restoring the other registers) it should be less RAM-consuming, isn't it?

Layout-wise, I'm a bit reluctant designing something new for the HP-30b. If, OTOH, the DMxxL platform (or something close to it) would qualify, it would be another story. Michael?

Agreed that a simplified UNDO could be implemented.

I like the 30B layout, maybe because it is Portrait orientation. I can understand that you are reluctant to design anything new for the 30B platform, as unfortunate as that is.

(01-01-2016 07:56 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Hopefully Michael could even consider switching to a portrait calculator.

If something compelling from the DMxxL platform comes looking like a Pioneer, I would be interested in a WP-xxS taking advantage of it.

[walter b]

Please allow me supporting the imagination of our friends a bit by two hypothetical screens:

DM34L:     and DM36L:    

Both feature 132x16 pixels. 34L provides a 95 pixels wide section for alpha, 36L provides space for four softkeys instead. Right sector with strange contents is for annunciators. Since also they aren't fixed LCD symbols but composed of pixels, we can save quite some space (DEG, RAD, and GRAD symbols share the same space, for example).

d:-)

Edit: Maybe further explanations are needed for the annunciators: i shall indicate a complex result, T a Temporary message, flashing T running Timer, A Alpha mode (may change to a for lower case), B = BEG, P Programming mode (may change to a flashing R for program Running), ° = 360 (may change to r for RAD or G for GRAD), M = m.dy (may change to Y for y.md). Prefix annunciators f, g, h share space. There's still space left for a steady d for Double precision (or a flashing d for Debug mode). Integer bases as well as carry and overflow flags may be indicated like on the WP 34S.

[Luigi Vampa]

Walter, vielen Dank für die Bilder. DM36L's screen layout looks more friendly to interact with the user IMHO. I am sure you can decide whether a poll would be worth.

I don't know the minimum batch numbers SwissMicros would need to go through to reach a break-even point with a sensible price, but all this sounds like a win-win to me: a solid&mature firmware with some hundreds of seasoned fanboys waiting for a renewed look&feel and even bigger memory.

In my dreams I would rather like it to be called HPC34WPU... HPC for 'high performance computer/calculator' and U for ultimate. Ok, I know, I know, it would look like a sort of car plate >D Anyway, I could live with DM36L ;o)

MfG BR +
Don Luigi

[walter b]

Buona sera, Luigi, e grazie per le sue carissime parole. But please take into account it's all pure vapourware (TM) unless SM offers more memory to hold our firmware - else it simply won't work. And the layout(s) need(s) some optimizing still before we'd go for a poll.

d:-)

[Luigi Vampa]

Ach so Walter!
I wish Swissmicro's Herr Steinmann could read these posts and tried to turn this solid vapourware into a crowd-sourcing project... should not enough customers ultimately ask for a unit, Swissmicros and prospect customers would lose no money at all.
Warum nicht? :o)

MfG BR +
Don Luigi

[walter b]

Naturalmente, perche no? Why not?

We offer a WP 34S and a WP 31S based on a platform whichs days are counted - but it's probably sufficient to cover the demand. We don't know yet whether a DM34L is possible at all (due to memory and unknown will of SM). Furthermore, just repeating the 34S on another HW isn't really breathtaking and will probably (my guess) not attract too many customers since the 34S is already there. A little progress would be better. Are solid keys instead of stick-on labels and a real dot-matrix display sufficient to make a WP/DM 34SII a success story?

In parallel, a WP/DM 32S sounds like a DM15L+, i.e. the niche looks even smaller. Main advantages compared to DM15L may be readable programs and alpha handling. Is that sufficient to make a project worthwile?

And reasoning for a WP 31S successor will follow the line explained for the WP 34S above.

Quite some basic unknowns so far. What do you (pl.) think?

d:-?

[Luigi Vampa]

You are completely right Walter, but that seems just one side of the equation to this-rookie-with-only-a-bunch-of-posts: I wonder how many best-seller clones could be launched before running out of models; either a WP34ss (...scientific on steroids;) or a brand-new WP43s could keep an entrepreneur/start-up in the wish list of calc pros&fan-boys, IMHO.

What if 'WP34ss' could have a bigger and improved display (maybe with the capability of being graphical after some FW releases), even IR port, not to mention USB out of the box, but...

...what features would be the most valued ones?
and how big could the market be for them?

The RPN force isn't strong enough in me yet to answer such bold questions, but I am sure this forum is plenty of RPN Jedis brave enough to shed some light on this.

MfG BR +
Don Luigi

PS: we must always bear in mind that, at the end, we are nothing but grown-up children, and we do love new toys every now and then O:^)

[John Smitherman]

To further complicate the 31s, 32s and 34s discussion Swiss Micros is selling a DM11L.


John