WP 34S --> WP 31S

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(02-04-2014 05:48 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  Nothing wrong with that at all. But, this is supposed to be a simple calculator. Dispensing with the need to print and install the full keyboard overlay would go a long way in keeping it simple and making it more likely to see the light of day. In fact, if we stick (pun?) to a design needing only stickers for the keys, that might be doable by the average Joe (printing a grid of rectangular key stickers that could be cut apart with a straight-edge and an exacto knife.)

Along the same lines, individual letter stickers printed in transparent overlay material could be used for the alpha labels. Or one clear strip per row. Simple for DIY along with your idea of rectangular key tops.

[walter b]

(02-04-2014 05:48 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  

(02-03-2014 09:26 PM)walter b Wrote:  And please try to print your design to scale before you assess it.

Certainly would have to print and cut plastic to see if it would really be viable. I tried to assure viability by working from the graphic used to cut the existing wp34s overlay. But I am only rudimentarily proficient at using the software (Inkscape), and not at all familiar with proceeding from that graphic to actual printing and cutting, so perhaps I missed something.

All I ask you to do is looking at your WP 34S, in particular at the keys I mentioned. Then please tell me where you want to put the additional letters in a readable design.

(02-04-2014 05:48 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  

(02-03-2014 09:26 PM)walter b Wrote:  Gentlemen, what's so terrific about letters on a nice black background? It even reduces glare and reflections from that fancy silver front. There were reasons why vintage HP calculators had a dark keyplate, weren't they?

Nothing wrong with that at all. But, this is supposed to be a simple calculator. Dispensing with the need to print and install the full keyboard overlay would go a long way in keeping it simple and making it more likely to see the light of day. In fact, if we stick (pun?) to a design needing only stickers for the keys, that might be doable by the average Joe (printing a grid of rectangular key stickers that could be cut apart with a straight-edge and an exacto knife.)

It is supposed to be a simpler though useful calculator. Usability drops if you can't read the labels. The average João, Pepe, Hans, and Pierre who can operate a scientific calculator can also apply a full keyboard overlay IMHO (I don't know the average Joe).

d:-I

[Jonathan Cameron]

I took the lastest keyboard layout version, took the letters off the keyboard and put them on the background overlay (with a few minor adjustments), and replaced the statistcs 'r' command with the || command. I did not recenter the keytops (some were shifted for the letter).

Here it is:

[utz]

Quote:I took the lastest keyboard layout version, took the letters off the keyboard and put them on the background overlay (with a few minor adjustments), and replaced the statistcs 'r' command with the || command. I did not recenter the keytops (some were shifted for the letter).

Here it is:

Hey, since you are aiming this design at people new to RPN, I can say that this one so far is the easiest for me to understand. I can find all the functions that I'm used to on my TI-36X Pro, and you say that it is programmable to some extent too! This sounds exciting, I've already got an HP-30b ready to be flashed. :-P

Sorry if my forum edict is off, I can't remember the last time I used a phpBB-like site :-)

[BruceH]

1) DEG/RAD - do people change mode enough that these need to be on keys? Can they not go under the MODES menu? Ditto HYP?

2) I'd like to see date arithmetic included.

3) Why do we have A-Z? (I scanned the thread but didn't see any justification.) If it is for memories, why not use 0-9, .0-.9 to give 20 memories - more than enough.

4) Stats: I don't think I have ever used slope and intercept on a calc (assuming these are s and y-hat). Can we not move these to the stats menu and have weighted mean on a key instead? Also: if you're expecting people to do any sort of regular stats work then sigma+ must be on an unshifted key. Maybe it is better to just drop stats completely on the assumption that no one does stats 'in the field' any more and will use a spreadsheet?

5) Lastly an HP32SII-style equation solver would be an acceptable alternative to programmability. (Although I realise that this is not so much reducing 34S code as adding more!)

[Jonathan Cameron]

Hi Bruce,

(02-05-2014 06:35 PM)BruceH Wrote:  1) DEG/RAD - do people change mode enough that these need to be on keys? Can they not go under the MODES menu?

I agree. DEG/RAD could be in the MODES menu.

(02-05-2014 06:35 PM)BruceH Wrote:  Ditto HYP?

I think this should be available on a shifted key as shown.

(02-05-2014 06:35 PM)BruceH Wrote:  2) I'd like to see date arithmetic included.

Which functions? I think keeping/adding date arithmetic in the MORE menu is possible, right Walter?

(02-05-2014 06:35 PM)BruceH Wrote:  3) Why do we have A-Z? (I scanned the thread but didn't see any justification.) If it is for memories, why not use 0-9, .0-.9 to give 20 memories - more than enough.

Not only memories. Since we have a large list of functions in the MORE/MODES/etc menus, having the letter keys makes finding a specific function much faster.

(02-05-2014 06:35 PM)BruceH Wrote:  4) Stats: I don't think I have ever used slope and intercept on a calc (assuming these are s and y-hat). Can we not move these to the stats menu and have weighted mean on a key instead? Also: if you're expecting people to do any sort of regular stats work then sigma+ must be on an unshifted key. Maybe it is better to just drop stats completely on the assumption that no one does stats 'in the field' any more and will use a spreadsheet?

We had a specific request for y-hat, so I'm okay leaving on a shifted key. Y-hat lets you use the previously accumulated stat data to estimate a new Y for a given X assuming the data is best-fitted to a line (least squares).

But I agree you have a point. If we are really going to support statistics, it would be best if E+ was on a top key. What do you suggest? What replacing the [->] key with E+? I'm not 100% why we need the [->] key on this calculator (Walter?)

(02-05-2014 06:35 PM)BruceH Wrote:  5) Lastly an HP32SII-style equation solver would be an acceptable alternative to programmability. (Although I realise that this is not so much reducing 34S code as adding more!)

Not sure how that works. Anything like the 42s?

-Jonathan

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-05-2014 06:35 PM)BruceH Wrote:  1) DEG/RAD - do people change mode enough that these need to be on keys? Can they not go under the MODES menu?

I took another look at the WP-34s manual, and the main relevant use of the [->] (right arrow) key seems to be for indirection and for using with the DEG/RAD keys to convert the current X from whatever angular mode it is in to Degrees or Radians (respectively). The right arrow key is also used for indirection in storage so is not relevant to this calculator. So putting DEG, RAD, and ->DEG and ->Rad into the MORE and I think we can get rid of DEG, RAD, and -> (right-arrow) from the keyboard. This would allow the E+ (statistics summation key) on top. I'll work on a new overlay in a bit.

-Jonathan

[Jonathan Cameron]

Here is another attempt.

• This takes Walters version in post #61
• Removes the right arrow key and puts DOWN on top
• Moves DEG, RAD into MODES
• Adds DEG->, ->DEG, RAD->, ->RAD to MORE
• Adds the 'r' key back to shift-6
• Adds || and RAN# to the remaining shifted keys (0 and 1)
• Moves the alpha letter key to 0 since I think it would be a problem on ENTER (that would terminate the menu selection, right?)
  

-Jonathan

[walter b]

Bruce, some answers:

1) DEG and RAD also used in connection with ->. So with those three labels you get ->DEG, ->RAD, DEG, and RAD. Furthermore, also ->H and ->H.MS use ->. So with five labels you get eight functions in total. Not too bad IMHO.
Regarding HYP, I concur with Jonathan.

2) DAYS+ and ΔDAYS are contained in MORE. Please see here (this was published some 35h ago already but is repeated here for sake of ... ):


3) That was answered before. Also RTFM helps.

4) I hate to tell you your assumption is wrong. Please look up those functions in said manual. And (as Jonathan wrote), ŷ was explicitly requested by a fellow forumer.

5) That wish exceeds the function set of the WP 34S. I bet you won't get that.

d:-I

[Jonathan Cameron]

Walter,

It seems like we are converging. I regard the DEG/RAD/-> vs Down on top as secondary issues. I would accept the version you posted in post #73. Not sure how much longer you want to spend building consensus on this.

What is your plan regarding the software? You mentioned that you had someone that might help. If you/he/she could set up a branch in the sourceforge repo, I'd like to also help. At least testing, etc. I can currently build the emulator on Ubuntu. I hope to have a cable figured out in a week or two then I'd be able to burn hardware. But I can now test emulator builds (executables) on LInux or Windows.

-Jonathan

[walter b]

(02-05-2014 08:59 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  Here is another attempt.

1. This takes Walters version in post #61
2. Removes the right arrow key and puts DOWN on top
3. Moves DEG, RAD into MODES
4. Adds DEG->, ->DEG, RAD->, ->RAD to MORE
5. Adds the 'r' key back to shift-6
6. Adds || and RAN# to the remaining shifted keys (0 and 1)
7. Moves the alpha letter key to 0 since I think it would be a problem on ENTER (that would terminate the menu selection, right?)
   

We're approaching a common understanding, don't we?
Some remarks:

1. Thanks.
2. Removing -> would be a pity as I explained to Bruce. And DOWN was on top before, wasn't it? OTOH, UP is seldom needed. Please remember DOWN and UP will also act as ROLL_DOWN and ROLL_UP.
3. Please see above.
4. Good idea.
5. RAN# is real fun in programming only. || has some value - it's a matter of personal preference.
6. [alpha] on [ENTER] won't be a problem - please see the WP 34S manual.
   

d:-)

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-05-2014 09:29 PM)walter b Wrote:  

1. [alpha] on [ENTER] won't be a problem - please see the WP 34S manual.
   

Okay, I don't get this. I interpreted the alpha under the ENTER key as the letter alpha for jumping ahead in menus. But if I do CONST and try pressing ENTER, it just inserts whatever constant and happen to be on and does not jump ahead to alpha (=0.00729...).

I was not sure where in the manual you meant, so maybe I'm missing something here.

-Jonathan

[walter b]

(02-05-2014 09:35 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  

(02-05-2014 09:29 PM)walter b Wrote:  

1. [alpha] on [ENTER] won't be a problem - please see the WP 34S manual.
   

Okay, I don't get this. I interpreted the alpha under the ENTER key as the letter alpha for jumping ahead in menus.

[alpha] on [ENTER] is for turning alpha mode on and off as on the WP 34S (see pp. 33, 40, 44, 71, 121 of the printed manual). If you need the letter [alpha], you call it via g+A on the WP 34S; you can't do that on the WP 31S for obvious reasons.

d:-)

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-06-2014 05:44 AM)walter b Wrote:  [alpha] on [ENTER] is for turning alpha mode on and off as on the WP 34S (see pp. 33, 40, 44, 71, 121 of the printed manual). If you need the letter [alpha], you call it via g+A on the WP 34S; you can't do that on the WP 31S for obvious reasons.

Hmm... Now I need a reminder why we need the alpha key (shift-Enter). We are not typing labels any more on this calculator, right?

-Jonathan

[walter b]

(02-06-2014 05:46 AM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 05:44 AM)walter b Wrote:  [alpha] on [ENTER] is for turning alpha mode on and off as on the WP 34S (see pp. 33, 40, 44, 71, 121 of the printed manual). If you need the letter [alpha], you call it via g+A on the WP 34S; you can't do that on the WP 31S for obvious reasons.

Hmm... Now I need a reminder why we need the alpha key (shift-Enter). We are not typing labels any more on this calculator, right?

You may enter more than one letter in catalog navigation (p. 147). So you need [ENTER] (or [alpha] in that mode) for termination. BTW, shifted [ENTER] calls FILL. Maybe I shall drop the [alpha] label since it seems confusing.

d:-)

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-06-2014 05:59 AM)walter b Wrote:  Maybe I shall drop the [alpha] label since it seems confusing.

It is confusing to me. I've read p 147 a couple of times and I still do not understand. Let me share what I think I understand: If I press a menu key, the menu item comes up. Then I can press one or two characters to jump to the first match (or just beyond if there is no match). But if I press ENTER at that point, I've terminated alpha entry because I have selected the item that is showing, right? So I do not see why you should include the alpha label under the ENTER key. I think the user of this calculator should probably not even be aware that there is an "alpha" mode. In any case, it is not a big deal.

Regarding shift-ENTER, you are right, we only have one shift key now, not two, so shift-ENTER is always FILL, not enter alpha mode.

-Jonathan

P.S. I just popped over 50 posts and I'm not a "Member!"

[walter b]

Consider it dropped

(02-06-2014 06:12 AM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  P.S. I just popped over 50 posts and I'm not a "Member!"

You're not? (Oh, why can't the English learn to spell?)

d;-)

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-06-2014 06:43 AM)walter b Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 06:12 AM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  P.S. I just popped over 50 posts and I'm not a "Member!"

Wow. I completely mistyped that! That should have been: I am a "member!"
I guess it is getting late. Off to bed.

EDIT: I finally figured out that you are right: A misspelling/mistyping: NOT instead of NOW! Lame...

-Jonathan

[walter b]

(02-05-2014 09:25 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  I would accept the version you posted in post #73. Not sure how much longer you want to spend building consensus on this.

Thanks. BTW, I'm willing to change x! to || or RMDR, whatever people prefer. 'I'm not married to x!' as people would say here. OTOH, x! has the advantage already having appeared on previous HP calculators more than once while RMDR and || haven't.

Quote:What is your plan regarding the software? You mentioned that you had someone that might help. If you/he/she could set up a branch in the sourceforge repo, I'd like to also help. At least testing, etc. I can currently build the emulator on Ubuntu. I hope to have a cable figured out in a week or two then I'd be able to burn hardware. But I can now test emulator builds (executables) on LInux or Windows.

No idea where I should have mentioned I had 'someone that might help'. Usually, such SW stuff goes to Pauli, but he indicated he won't have time. So we're looking for volunteers.

d:-)

[Paul Dale]

I can add developers to the sourceforge repository easily enough.
If someone wants to create a branch and develop on that, I'd be more than happy.


Pauli