WP 34S --> WP 31S

[BruceH]

(02-09-2014 02:48 AM)walter b Wrote:  

(02-08-2014 10:20 PM)BruceH Wrote:  1) ... the 31S has a strong statistics capability. ... Can we use the allocated keyboard space for something more popular?

For sure we can't print on the respective keys [more popular], can we? What is it what you want??

I'll settle for a hidden function that keeps track of how often each function is used.
After a few months or a year, we can do a survey and compare the top 5 most used commands that are not on the keyboard versus the least used 5 commands that are on the keyboard.

Even if we never change the ROM again, it will be useful data for HP and for the next variant along.

(02-09-2014 02:48 AM)walter b Wrote:  

(02-08-2014 10:20 PM)BruceH Wrote:  2) I'm slightly confused by the RMDR function. It's missing in #59 & #60; appears in #66 & #71; gone again in #73 and still gone at #96 which is the 'final' version, but no discussion as to why. I was quite happy with it on the [/] key.

IIRC I gave a reason. I've to find it again since I hate retyping.

d:-)

[i]Edit: Here you are: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-576...46.html[/i]

That link takes me to post #51 by Jeff O. which proposes a keyboard overlay with x! on the [/] key and RMDR in the menu but no explanation as to why the change.

[There seems to be a forum problem here: as people reply to a post in the middle of a thread, the subsequent numbers are incremented, making them as useless as the proverbial chocolate teapot. So the ones I carefully typed in yesterday no longer line up. :-( ]

[walter b]

(02-09-2014 05:38 PM)BruceH Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 02:48 AM)walter b Wrote:  For sure we can't print on the respective keys [more popular], can we? What is it what you want??

I'll settle for a hidden function that keeps track of how often each function is used.
After a few months or a year, we can do a survey and compare the top 5 most used commands that are not on the keyboard versus the least used 5 commands that are on the keyboard.

Even if we never change the ROM again, it will be useful data for HP and for the next variant along.

Hmmh. One thing I like with calculators is that they are stand-alone devices with NO connection to the internet or any other curious folks grabbing data. And I don't see why we should do even more unpaid work for HP (or how they will be called then).

(02-09-2014 05:38 PM)BruceH Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 02:48 AM)walter b Wrote:  Here you are: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-576...46.html[/i]

That link takes me to post #51 by Jeff O. which proposes a keyboard overlay with x! on the [/] key and RMDR in the menu but no explanation as to why the change.

That link takes [i]me to post #83 wherein I wrote: "BTW, I'm willing to change x! to || or RMDR, whatever people prefer. 'I'm not married to x!' as people would say here. OTOH, x! has the advantage already having appeared on previous HP calculators more than once while RMDR and || haven't." YMMV.

d:-)

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(02-09-2014 04:46 PM)walter b Wrote:  The emulator skin was handmade pixel by pixel. I can do that again.

Any particular skin we should start with? I like the 'medium' size best.

It really was a labour of love, then! Yes, the medium size is the one I use with the Windows Emulator. Thank you!

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-09-2014 04:46 PM)walter b Wrote:  Any particular skin we should start with? I like the 'medium' size best.

The "Medium" is my favorite too.

-Jonathan

[Paul Dale]

(02-09-2014 09:38 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  It really was a labour of love, then!

The entire 34S project was a labour of love.


- Pauli

[jwm]

(02-08-2014 04:18 AM)walter b Wrote:  About the HP-15C LE as target platform: Sorry, but its LCD is even less flexible than the one of the HP-30b - its a show-stopper IMHO. And I find 'seamless complex number support' in the HP-42S, not in the HP-15C.

Oh, I meant that the HP-15C would get a firmware that behaves exactly like the HP-15C should including its use of the screen. Basically I want to fix the bugs in the LE that HP won't and perhaps get some more performance by having an actual native implementation.

I'd use the HP-30b to prototype it, when running on the 30b, I'd have the firmware use the extra digits and the graphics as a y display but otherwise would act like the 15C version. I'd have to come up with an extra button though on the 30b.

Hmm.. Yeah, it looks like the 42S complex is closer to what I'd want out of a calculator. I am so annoyed that the 35s almost does complex okay, then utterly just fails at things like not allowing many basic operations on complex numbers that would make sense.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

So now that the WP-31S is taking shape [yes, it is Forging along ], I have a few questions to pose to the community:

1. Since this is a basic RPN sans Programming, what types of operations make sense for STO/RCL ? On the WP-34S, there are many operations available, not all of which I am sure are needed on Junior. Let us discuss to iron out these last details.
a. STO / RCL +-*/ - this seems necessary
b. STO / RCL --> - Not sure indirection is required
c. STO / RCL X Y Z T (and A B C D in SSIZE8) - is there a need for this in a non-programmable?
d. STO / RCL ▲ / ▼ - I can see requiring this type of Max/Min operation in programming, but not sure for ordinary use.

2. Regarding "Last x". Is "FILL" used so much that it requires the coveted [f] ENTER position? Would a Shifted Last x be more useful for RPN beginners? Keep in mind, as in the WP-34S, a RCL L will do a traditional Last x, but the finger travel is awfully long in this layout. Thoughts? (Yes, I know some of the design team have strong opinions on this, and there was a discussion a few years back). FILL could go into a catalog, in that case.

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-12-2014 01:15 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  a. STO / RCL +-*/ - this seems necessary

I agree this seems useful.

(02-12-2014 01:15 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  b. STO / RCL --> - Not sure indirection is required

I do not think STO/RCL indirection is useful except in programming. Anything that you might use the indirection for in this calculator should really be done on a programmable calculator or a computer.

(02-12-2014 01:15 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  c. STO / RCL X Y Z T (and A B C D in SSIZE8) - is there a need for this in a non-programmable?

I am not sure about this one. Maybe?

(02-12-2014 01:15 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  d. STO / RCL ▲ / ▼ - I can see requiring this type of Max/Min operation in programming, but not sure for ordinary use.

I was not aware of this and had to look it up in the manual. I think that this is more useful in programming.

(02-12-2014 01:15 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  2. Regarding "Last x". Is "FILL" used so much that it requires the coveted [f] ENTER position? Would a Shifted Last x be more useful for RPN beginners? Keep in mind, as in the WP-34S, a RCL L will do a traditional Last x, but the finger travel is awfully long in this layout. Thoughts? (Yes, I know some of the design team have strong opinions on this, and there was a discussion a few years back)

I find 'fill' useful to clear the stack. I think we should have an easy way to clear the stack (especially since we cannot see all of it at any one time). If we add CLSTK to the CLEAR menu, then I think relegating FILL to the MORE menu would be fine.

I do not have a strong opinion about 'Last x' vs 'RCL L'

[Paul Dale]

The indirection won't occur unless you expose the -> key (and don't remove the code support). The current layout is missing -> from memory so I wouldn't bother -- these functions can't be entered and thus aren't available.

Definitely keep the arithmetic STO/RCL operations.

The STO/RCL minimum/maximum operations are probably not very useful outside of programming mode. I have used them occasionally in run mode however.

I'd keep the stack/lettered registers as targets for all STO/RCL operations.

No feelings about FILL. I find a few ENTERs about as fast.


- Pauli

[walter b]

(02-12-2014 01:15 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  1. Since this is a basic RPN sans Programming, what types of operations make sense for STO/RCL ? ...
a. STO / RCL +-*/ - this seems necessary
b. STO / RCL --> - Not sure indirection is required
c. STO / RCL X Y Z T (and A B C D in SSIZE8) - is there a need for this in a non-programmable?
d. STO / RCL ▲ / ▼ - I can see requiring this type of Max/Min operation in programming, but not sure for ordinary use.

a. Yes.
b. No in a non-programmable.
c. Yes. I vote for leaving them included. Else there would be only ten registers addressable.
d. Never used those so far.

Quote:2. Regarding "Last x". Is "FILL" used so much that it requires the coveted [f] ENTER position? Would a Shifted Last x be more useful for RPN beginners? Keep in mind, as in the WP-34S, a RCL L will do a traditional Last x, but the finger travel is awfully long in this layout. Thoughts?

FILL saves seven ENTERs with the best stack size. And it makes CLSTK obsolete. I'd leave it where it is. Ten more reasons: Also for RCL 0, the finger travel is awfully long in this layout

d:-)

[Siegfried]

Quote:2. Regarding "Last x". Is "FILL" used so much that it requires the coveted [f] ENTER position? Would a Shifted Last x be more useful for RPN beginners? Keep in mind, as in the WP-34S, a RCL L will do a traditional Last x, but the finger travel is awfully long in this layout. Thoughts?

Reading through the topic I also thought that a more prominent Last X (on a shifted key) would work better for an "entry level" calc than RCL L.

I find the idea great as this would result in a calc that might be admissible for lower school grades where programmables are prohibited (if teachers are able to recognize them ;-).

[walter b]

The layout needed a little reorganisation. Please see SourceForge.

d:-)

Edited to correct some typos.

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-12-2014 10:51 PM)walter b Wrote:  The layout needed a little Reorganisation. Please See SourceForge.

I'd like to hear more about the reasoning behind these changes, including moving the shift key.

Also, I think it is a bit more regular or cleaner not to put a letter key under the 'right arrow' key. That way all the lower letter keys are on a clean block. You do not have to remember that one of the special keys on the left of the number block also has a letter (when the rest do not).

Thanks

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-12-2014 11:14 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  Also, I think it is a bit more regular or cleaner not to put a letter key under the 'right arrow' key. That way all the lower letter keys are on a clean block. You do not have to remember that one of the special keys on the left of the number block also has a letter (when the rest do not).

I noticed that the / * - + keys on the right side do not have letters. They did on the 34s, so It seems like we could put letters there:


7 8 9 /
P Q R S

4 5 6 *
T U V W

1 2 3 -
X Y Z ?

0 . E+ +
? ? E+ ?


So we have room for other letters or perhaps leave the whole bottom row without letters which would look cleaner.

I'm not convinced we need the Sigma letter under the Sigma+ key. I think the menus with Sigma entries are small enough that scrolling through the entires would not be too painful (eg STAT). I'll take another look at this.

-Jonathan

-

[walter b]

(02-13-2014 01:30 AM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  I noticed that the / * - + keys on the right side do not have letters. They did on the 34s, so It seems like we could put letters there: ...

I did that on purpose to avoid some collisions we had on the WP 34S. Your suggestion, however, looks good.

Quote:So we have room for other letters or perhaps leave the whole bottom row without letters which would look cleaner.

I'm not convinced we need the Sigma letter under the Sigma+ key. I think the menus with Sigma entries are small enough that scrolling through the entires would not be too painful (eg STAT).

Don't forget CONST in this matter.

d:-)

[walter b]

(02-12-2014 11:14 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  

(02-12-2014 10:51 PM)walter b Wrote:  The layout needed a little reorganisation. Please see SourceForge.

I'd like to hear more about the reasoning behind these changes, including moving the shift key.

Just look at this, in particular at the two green sets:
   
Now try the same with the previous layout and notice the differences.

d:-)

[Jonathan Cameron]

Hi Walter,

(02-13-2014 05:52 AM)walter b Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 01:30 AM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  I noticed that the / * - + keys on the right side do not have letters. They did on the 34s, so It seems like we could put letters there: ...

I did that on purpose to avoid some collisions we had on the WP 34S. Your suggestion, however, looks good.

Quote:So we have room for other letters or perhaps leave the whole bottom row without letters which would look cleaner.
I'm not convinced we need the Sigma letter under the Sigma+ key. I think the menus with Sigma entries are small enough that scrolling through the entires would not be too painful (eg STAT).

Don't forget CONST in this matter.

Sounds good. You are right that the Sigma would be useful in a couple menus. It also seems like the alpha letter might be useful on the bottom row so you can jump to the greek letters in the CONST menu. I have not carefully looked at the other menus to see if there any other special characters that might be useful.

I look forward to seeing your updated skin image.

-Jonathan

[walter b]

(02-13-2014 05:32 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  You are right that the Sigma would be useful in a couple menus. It also seems like the alpha letter might be useful on the bottom row so you can jump to the greek letters in the CONST menu. I have not carefully looked at the other menus to see if there any other special characters that might be useful.

There is a point we need to talk about:

According to the sorting order defined in the Index of Operations, Greek letters immediately follow after Latin Z on the WP 34S (and will do the same on the WP 31S). On the keyboard, the Latin letters are printed in capitals since everybody knows how the lower case letters look. The Greek letters we use on the WP 31S are alpha, gamma, Delta, epsilon, lambda, mu (my), Sigma & sigma, and Phi. There are five free locations on the keyboard. If we continue with capitals, Alpha, Epsilon, and Mu (My) would look identical to A, E, and M, respectively, so we should avoid these by printing only Gamma, Delta, Lambda, Sigma, and Phi. Or should we switch to lower case for Greek and print alpha, lambda, mu (my), sigma, and phi? Can we assume the target audience knowing γ corresponds to Γ, λ to Λ, σ to Σ, and φ to Φ?

d:-?

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-13-2014 09:28 PM)walter b Wrote:  According to the sorting order defined in the Index of Operations, Greek letters immediately follow after Latin Z on the WP 34S (and will do the same on the WP 31S). On the keyboard, the Latin letters are printed in capitals since everybody knows how the lower case letters look. The Greek letters we use on the WP 31S are alpha, gamma, Delta, epsilon, lambda, mu (my), Sigma & sigma, and Phi. There are five free locations on the keyboard. If we continue with capitals, Alpha, Epsilon, and Mu (My) would look identical to A, E, and M, respectively, so we should avoid these by printing only Gamma, Delta, Lambda, Sigma, and Phi. Or should we switch to lower case for Greek and print alpha, lambda, mu (my), sigma, and phi? Can we assume the target audience knowing γ corresponds to Γ, λ to Λ, σ to Σ, and φ to Φ?

I'm willing to be pragmatic about the greek letters and mix it up. Use lower-case ones where they match the catalogue names and use capitol Sigma for sigma. I think using all upper-case greek letters is confusing. However, capitol Sigman should be capitalized since that is the way it appears in the catalogues. However, I think going through the wp-31s catalogues carefully is good idea since some of the greek letters may not be needed -- and maybe some other special non-greek character would be helpful.

-Jonathan

[Jonathan Cameron]

(02-13-2014 10:21 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  ... some of the greek letters may not be needed -- and maybe some other special non-greek character would be helpful.

I also noticed that % and the degree symbol might be handy in some of the catalogues.

-Jonathan