HP Prime wireless kit

[Joe Horn]

(09-12-2014 10:41 PM)dbbotkin Wrote:  This is a "comparison" from a calculator store in NL, attached as PDF. 'New' Prime €149, 'old' Prime €129.

Huh? Both columns are identical except for the price. Both are listed as wireless capable.

[dbbotkin]

That the point exactly! The source is a popular calculator shop in Europe and it is no wonder there are disgruntled Prime owners.

BTW, the firmware in the 'new' Prime is 6030, whereas the latest in the 'old' is 6031.

Perhaps to downgrade the wireless capability???

[Thomas Radtke]

I'd say this comparison table is wrong.

I assume downgrading could have been done in software just as disabling an unsupported hardware feature was done. Looked at the forum you mentioned (forum.hp-prime.de) but didn't found evidence to support you hypothesis. But there's a lot to read so maybe you have a link?

[dbbotkin]

That the table is wrong is the heart of the problem: here's a link to a disgruntled owner's view of the 'old' Prime's published capability and what has been done.

http://compgroups.net/comp.sys.hp48/who-...nt/2984994

As to my hypothesis--that the 'old' Prime had some ability to use the wireless kit, but that ability has been removed--I came up with that based on reading a lot of posts, mostly on the hp-prime site, but elsewhere as well. It took well over an hour and while i can probably send a bunch of links, I'm not sure that will answer the 'prime-ary' question: is the 'old' Prime capable of using a wireless device with any past version of the firmware.

As we do not yet have access to the wireless kit, testing the hypothesis will be more difficult.

Here is an experiment that might have to be done in Europe:
1) get an 'old' Prime that has NOT had the 6031 ROM firmware applied
2) get an orange thingy from a kit and attach it to the Prime
3) see if it can connect to the PC connection kit (an access point might be needed, or another orange thingy)
4) if it doesn't connect, the hypothesis is wrong
5) if it does connect, apply the ROM 6031 and if it still connects, the hypothesis is wrong
6) if it fails to connect, the reason is probably due to the 6031

Alternatively, one could try to load 6030 firmware on an 'old' Prime, but that isn't what I had in mind.

[dbbotkin]

"Schau doch bitte mal in die Links aus dem ersten Beitrag, da steht vieles zum "neuen" Prime. (Kurzfassung: der "alte" kann kein WLAN, kein 'SEND' seit der letzten Firmware. Es gibt einige User, die das als nicht fair empfinden.)." source: HP-Prime.de

My translation:
"Please look in the links from the first post, there is much about the "new" Prime. (Short version: the "old" [Prime] can not use WiFi, no more 'SEND' since the last firmware. There are some users who see this as unfair.)

Other than some ragging on American business (viz, "Americans only care about money and the NSA"), the European Prime-fans are not happy with the loss of WiFi 'Send' capabilities.

It remains unclear whether any of the complaints are based on any "loss of value" from removal of a feature as it was intended to used. If the "intended use" of the wireless link was to enable classroom instruction, but if the complaint stems from the removal of a defect in the software that was exploited by some users, I wouldn't wait for a replacement from HP. If these are teachers or students complaints, then HP should pay attention.

[jebem]

Apparently the wireless kit is available for some.

[jebem]

Official video from HP Published on Jun 16, 2014

http://www.hp.com/calculators - Improve classroom interactivity and make learning easier with the HP Prime Wireless Kit*, which allows teachers to wirelessly push and pull content between the teacher PC and up to 30 HP Prime Calculators in a single classroom.1 Create and edit programs, exam configurations, and data sets on the teacher PC and send polls to and receive them from student calculators. View and project individual student calculator screens to the entire class. For more information please visit http://www.hp.com/calculators.

Subject to regional availability"

1. Compatible only with HP Prime Graphing Calculator SKU G8X92AA, sold separately. Each HP Prime Wireless Kit includes one PC antenna and 30 wireless modules , with bi-directional transmission range up to 15 meters.
*Product image for illustration purposes only. Actual product may vary slightly.

[dbbotkin]

Nice. The HP Prime (G8X92AA) has College Board approval for the 2014-15, so I would expect to see Kits becoming available in the US soon. There may be an "educational" account needed? I searched HP education store, but found nothing.

New Primes and Kits are available in Europe now.

[Thomas Radtke]

(09-13-2014 09:48 PM)dbbotkin Wrote:  My translation:
"Please look in the links from the first post, there is much about the "new" Prime. (Short version: the "old" [Prime] can not use WiFi, no more 'SEND' since the last firmware. There are some users who see this as unfair.)

The old firmware supported functions that won't work anyway and was modified accordingly, that's all IMO. Of course customers complained. I'd have given it back, allthough not due to the missing wireless capabilities, but because I would like to have the SmartStream as an option.

I bet if the Prime becomes a success, there will be someone building an inexpensive clone with an Arduino board, allowing for some budget sensors. And that probably won't work either.

To me, the broken USB is a showstopper for a device like the Prime. Just wait and see what customers have to say about the new revision and if the Prime is still supported one year from now or forgotten like the 39GII.

[cutterjohn]

^^ +1

Yep. We got guinea pigged on borked hw, and they HAD to KNOW that it was borked as it wasn't rocket science, just probably whoops power went to the wrong place so USB OTG no workies.

They conveniently covered up the guinea pig thing by giving the fixed proper version of the prime a new model number, thus avoiding the recall and replacement costs.

[EDIT]
...and we're still being guinea pigged on the firmware... but at least it's mostly usable nowadays...
[/EDIT]

[dbbotkin]

Help me out here: why is the USB thought to be defective? Are there some posts on the forum that I should read?

I've been transferring data files to and from my Prime, but haven't been aware of any problem with the USB.

Thanks,
D

[Kevin Ouellet]

The defective USB issue is a problem that was present in the first two firmwares. Back then, when you connected the calculator with the Connectivity Kit open, it would check the calculator files at a rate of about 1-10 KB/seconds, so if you had about 600 KB worth of programs on your calculator, you had to wait several minutes before you could finally do any file transfer. Sending files was as slow.

This problem was fixed in the 3rd firmware. It's still slow, but nowhere as bad. I think it takes about 10 seconds now before I can finally send files and file transfer is about 10 times faster than it used to be.


The first two firmwares also became very unstable when you had both the connectivity kit and emulator connected to the HP Prime simultaneously, but now that file transfer from the emulator is no longer possible on my model I guess it's a moot point.

[dbbotkin]

Ah! Thanks for that explanation. Since USB is both a cable design and a fixed-data-rate communication standard (prob USB 2 for the Prime), wouldn't the problem lie, not in the "USB", but in the algorithm used to parse the files on the device? In other words, maybe the code couldn't keep up with the data rate or was doing something that didn't need to be done? The code was changed and now it works faster.

You mention file transfer from the Emu to the Prime (I assume through the connectivity kit) being no longer possible. I have had some problems, but believe there is a solution. For example, I tried to copy a matrix M1 from the Emu to the Prime and it didn't work. I found I had that matrix on both the CAS and RPN stacks on the Prime, I cleared the stacks and the matrix transferred. This may be due to the way the OS handles instances of data, IDK.

D

[debrouxl]

The Prime's USB controller and software are capable of relatively high transfer rates (for a calculator, that is...), as shown by firmware upgrades of 36+MB being reliably transferred in significantly less time than <~10 MB software updates can be transferred to TI Nspires. My third-party firmware experiments on the Prime would have been downright annoying with Nspire-class transfer rates. Nspire transfer rates are much better than 84+(C)(SE), or to a lower extent, 89T transfer rates, but the OS is also much larger.

However, in standard communication mode, the Prime uses USB HID. The upside of using HID is that unlike the whole series of TI USB-capable calculators and cables and also earlier USB-capable HP calculators (exposing device descriptors in vendor-specific classes), the Prime doesn't require a specific Windows USB driver. Such drivers are a huge pain for users and a support pain for HP, it's a very good thing that the Prime doesn't require them.
The downside of using HID, and therefore interrupt transfer, is that Windows reliably, but randomly, loses data at transfers rates higher than several dozen KB/s.

The Prime remains very unstable after transferring files larger than several hundreds of KBs and unstable when or after executing them, but that's another story...


Without insider information: chances are that the USB issues with Prime hardware revision A, which prompted the making of revision C, have to do more with host / OTG mode usage, e.g. with StreamSmart or wireless cradles as devices, than with device mode usage (the Prime being connected to a computer host).

[dbbotkin]

Yes, the HID spec for USB is a very simple way to transfer information. Not to be picky, but the advantage isn't the absence of drivers, but rather that every device is certain to have one, right? That also sorta explains the 'MOUSE' function on the Prime: probably refers to the USB interface, not that a mouse might be attached to a calculator! (or could be the touch screen, IDK)

In any case the HID spec has an open API and barring some tricky stuff in the Prime code, should permit some clever use of the USB port. A bluetooth mouse works because it uses the same HID protocol as a wired one. Hmmmm . . .?

[Han]

(09-16-2014 04:54 PM)Kevin Ouellet Wrote:  now that file transfer from the emulator is no longer possible on my model I guess it's a moot point.

Which model do you have? I have a revision A calculator and it is capable of receiving files from the emulator. The reverse direction (sending from a calculator to emulator), however, does not seem to work.

[dbbotkin]

My Prime is ver A with the 6031 firmware. A 50x50 random matrix transfers in less than a second. I don't have any 'graphics' files or pictures and the backup size is <30k which might be helping the speed. I've included the system specs for reference. BTW, I have reason to believe that Windows programs run better wrapped in the Mac OS, particularly where I/O is involved. IMHO, the USB is plenty quick for the Prime, YMMV.

I suggest that anyone who is experiencing speed problems or glitches with Prime, first clear all the stacks before connecting the PC. It appears to me that the C-Kit is doing a refresh of the Prime screen about once a second (or the Prime is doing it, IDK) and that may be affecting the USB comms.

System configuration:
MacPro2013 3.7GHz Quad core Xeon E5
16GB 1867MHz DDR3

OS X 10.9.4 Parallels 10 Win7Prof 64 bit (2 CPU's 2GB RAM allocated)
USB cheap Amazon cable into USB3 port (HP Prime is seen as a USB2 device 480 Mb/s max)

[debrouxl]

Quote:Not to be picky, but the advantage isn't the absence of drivers, but rather that every device is certain to have one, right?

Right. HID devices use the OS's generic HID driver, instead of requiring a specific driver.

Quote:That also sorta explains the 'MOUSE' function on the Prime: probably refers to the USB interface, not that a mouse might be attached to a calculator! (or could be the touch screen, IDK)

MOUSE is indeed for the touch screen, not for using the Prime as a HID mouse. The TI-89T can behave as both an USB HID mouse and HID keyboard through a third-party program, but not the Prime, AFAWCT.

Quote:BTW, I have reason to believe that Windows programs run better wrapped in the Mac OS, particularly where I/O is involved.

Agreed for disk I/O, as Windows' disk scheduler is notoriously bad: the usual Windows disk benchmarks running through Wine under Linux (not even virtualization) traditionally yield much better results than on native Windows.
That's less of a given for network or USB I/O, for which virtualization often reduces (or at least, does not improve) throughput and/or reliability.

Quote:IMHO, the USB is plenty quick for the Prime, YMMV.

That's because you only have few, small files
USB on the Prime is annoyingly slow with several hundreds of KBs, let alone dozens of MBs. The protocol on top of HID is missing the "directory list" commands supported by most of the TI-Z80, TI-68k and TI-Nspire series: the dirlist command triggers a mere enumeration of the calculator's contents, instead of a lengthy, all-or-nothing backup.

[toml_12953]

(09-13-2014 09:48 PM)dbbotkin Wrote:  Other than some ragging on American business (viz, "Americans only care about money and the NSA")

The money part is by law. Public firms have to maximize profits. It's actually a law in the US.
As for NSA, I have to care about it since I'm diabetic (doesn't NSA stand for No Sugar Added?)

[dbbotkin]

Quote:That's because you only have few, small files :)
USB on the Prime is annoyingly slow with several hundreds of KBs, let alone dozens of MBs. The protocol on top of HID is missing the "directory list" commands supported by most of the TI-Z80, TI-68k and TI-Nspire series: the dirlist command triggers a mere enumeration of the calculator's contents, instead of a lengthy, all-or-nothing backup.

That is correct. When I first got my Prime, I thought "gee, a picture on the screen would be nice" and searched for a way to add a jpg (TI nspire does that), but nada. Then I looked on the 'net and found a 'method' that tricks a graphics display GROB file into holding an image. Huge files! Slow speed! (and no compression as GROB is a bitmap)

But is that because of the volume of information or the (unexpected) size of a type of file or the little calculator brain just doesn't want to become an iPod?

For my purposes, being able to work with numbers and complex formulae on a portable, very low-cost device is more than enough. On my iPhone, I have (and use) a 12c, a 41c, a 42s and a 48GX and they all do more than their progenitors in the realm of speed. What they lack is a brilliant interface to the display capabilities of the host device.

I don't want to sound like a newbie-fan-boy, but the HP Prime nails the use of the tiny graphic interface for 'graphing' and working with data in stacks. The ability to manipulate data is amazing and the user interface is intuitive after some practice ("oh, now I see why they did that").

Nothing wrong with pushing the envelope on the capabilities of a device (BTDT, too), but one must be careful to separate the "test-pilot data" from the implications for the device in the manner it is intended to be used.